[erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

[Sashan Govender]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:16 PM Fred Hebert <mononcqc@REDACTED> wrote:

> On 02/13, Sashan Govender wrote:
> >I think you just need to tolerate different cultures better. A word that
> is
> >deemed racist in one culture isn't the same in another.
> >
>
> This is wrong. This is a classical bad argument that is related to the
> *paradox of intolerance*.


No, the paradox of intolerance was not what I was trying for. I really
meant tolerate, as in actually accept that someone else will not have the
same connotations with the word 'coon' as you might.  Furthermore expecting
them to elevate it to the same level of morality as your own is somewhat
imperialistic and arrogant. I'll have to explain further because otherwise
I doubt you'll be able to see where I'm coming from and my initial post was
probably too brief. I'll explain 1) how I learnt to tolerate different
interpretations and of words and 2) why 'coon' will never hold any
significance as a 'bad word' in my heart.

I grew up in apartheid South Africa. This was a system of government that
legitimised racist laws. It dictated where you could live, where you went
to school, where you could own businesses and which jobs you got. My
parents were more affected by the imposed inequalities than I was since I
was at school at the time and being a kid, normal was what the world in
front of you was. My ancestors were the ones that worked as slaves in the
farms or mines or railroads.You got used to not being allowed in certain
restaurants and malls. Some places were off limits to us (like the Orange
Free State, a province in the country) where we could not stay overnight
but only pass through. When with my dad, we were walking across a beach but
kicked off and told to walk around because it was white only. They wanted
to move flats once and were told that only whites were allowed in the
complex. I've been mocked and called racial slurs, served last in queues,
talked down to. Bad words over there are 'kaffir' and 'coolie'. They're
highly offensive words and given the nature of violence in that country,
it's something you could be killed over. For me those words carry more
significance than 'coon' ever will. It does not make sense to me to ever
elevate 'coon' to the status of 'kaffir' or 'coolie'. It really can't carry
the same emotional weight for me as it would for someone from North
America. If it did it would be insulting to my heritage and my identity.
Moreover I reject having it imposed on me that I should feel the same way
about that word as a North American would.

When I moved to NZ it was quite clear that those same words that were
insulting in South Africa didn't carry over. Both countries speak English
but the cultures are different, although SA has more languages. I noticed
that there's there is a product called 'kaffir lime' grocery stores
everywhere. Imagine having 'n...ga lime' in American/Canadian grocery
stores. I got used to it after a while and it really doesn't bother me
anymore. Instead of shouting out about the use of the word 'kaffir' in
their product, I understood that different countries use words differently,
and expecting NZ to change for me to accommodate my sensitivities would
have been stupid.



> Unless I am simply unaware of it, there is no
> English-speaking culture for which the word 'coon' (and not just
> 'raccoon') is somehow a very important concept integral to their
> culture, such that not using it would be oppressive in some way.
>


> In any case, the paradox of intolerance goes like this:
>
> > Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we
> > extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are
> > not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the
> > intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with
> > them.
>
> You can't just go and honestly try to make the argument that
> purposefully using a term that is deemed racist by most of the
> anglosphere is somehow cool and good because another unnamed culture
> probably sees no problem about it. How is that in any way reasonable?
>
>
It's a North Americanism that's been propagated. Moreover, without a doubt,
the majority of English speaking groups don't attach the same emotional
baggage to it that North Americans seem to. Quite happy rejecting it for
aforementioned reasons. I really don't want to absorb the cultural
misgivings  North Americans have. I don't appreciate North Americans
pushing their cultural sensitivities onto other groups as well expecting me
to feel the same. That's just wrong, as I explained before. I really can't
physically absorb at an emotional and gut level, the significance you might
attach to the word, simply because I haven't lived in your culture.



>
> >There are many other uses for coon.
> >Maine Coon is a type of cat.
> >Coon is type of cheese in Australia. Go on - tell all of Australia to stop
> >eating coon.
> >
>
> The tool is called 'coon', not 'Maine coon', and it is not called 'coon
> (cheese)'. It's not called 'raccoon', and it does not have a single
> raccoon image. Instead you have commands like 'coon build', 'coon
> release', and a hosting site like 'coonhub'.
>
> And that some cheese brand uses the name does not mean it's any decent
> idea for a programming tool.  What the hell of a kind of logic leap is
> that?  Are you unable to see context as worthwhile or to imagine that
> someone might think "this is the racist term" more easily than "this is
> clearly a reference to cheese"
>


>
> This can't be anything but bad faith. This is not really the topic on
> which to argue as a sport.
>
> >Next you'll be telling me to rethink the use of the work 'monkey' or
> >'gorrilla' for a library. Where does it end?
> >
>
> It ends with respectfully not trying to piss off entire segments of the
> human race with shitty naming strategies that have very obvious racist
> overtones, as soon as you learn what their meaning is. Everyone is
> allowed to make mistakes, but if you double- and triple-down on it, you
> deserve the shitstorm coming your way from public backlash. Hands down.
>
>
I think only you will be pissed off. I somehow manage to walk into a
grocery store and buy 'kaffir lime' leaves and not fall apart in a tears of
outrage. And I'm black. Go figure.


> I'm sorry that using racist terms is somehow integral to your
> appreciation of programming libraries, but *not* using racist terms is
> somehow integral to my appreciation of programming communities.
>
> It seems we're in a quandary here, so I'll refer to the conclusion to
> the paradox of intolerance that follows the earlier quote: "We should
> therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the
> intolerant."
>
> so gently piss off.
>
>
You don't know me however you managed to assume a lot about me from 'bad
faith' to racist terms being integral to my appreciation of libraries. Not
sure how you manage that. Probably comes from your expectation that
everyone must see the word 'coon' as you do.
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