[erlang-questions] "actor database" - architectural strategy question

Miles Fidelman <>
Mon Feb 17 15:20:52 CET 2014


[Enough with the threads on Erlang angst for a while - time for some 
real questions :-) ]

BACKGROUND:
A lot of what I do is systems engineering, and a lot of that ends up in 
the realm of technology assessment - picking the right platform and 
tools for a particular system.  My dablings in Erlang are largely in 
that category - I keep seeing it as potentially useful for a class of 
systems, keep experimenting with it, done a couple proof-of-concept 
efforts, but haven't built an operational system at scale with it 
(yet).  The focus, so far, has been in modeling and simulation (I first 
discovered Erlang when chasing R&D contracts for a firm that built 
simulation engines for military trainers.  I was flabbergasted to 
discover that everything was written in C++, every simulated entity was 
an object, with 4 main loops threading through every object, 20 times a 
second.  Talk about spaghetti code.  Coming from a data comm. 
protocol/network background - where we'd spawn a process for everything 
- I asked the obvious question, and was told that context switches would 
bring a 10,000 entity simulation to its knees.  My instinctual response 
was "bullshit" - and went digging into the technology for massive 
concurrency, and discovered Erlang.)

Anyway....  For years, I've been finding myself in situations, and on 
projects, that have a common characteristic of linked documents that 
change a lot - in the general arena of planning and workflow. Lots of 
people, each editing different parts of different documents - with 
changes rippling through the collection.  Think linked spreadsheets, 
tiered project plans, multi-level engineering documents with lots of 
inter-dependencies.  To be more concrete: systems engineering documents, 
large proposals, business planning systems, command and control systems.

Add in requirements for disconnected operation that lead to 
distribution/replication requirements rather than keeping single, 
central copies of things (as the librarians like to say, "Lots of Copies 
Keeps Stuff Safe").

So far we've always taken conventional approaches - ranging from manual 
paper shuffling and xeroxing, to file servers with manual organization, 
to some of MS Office's document linking capabilities, to document 
databases and sharepoint.  And played with some XML database technologies.

But.... I keep thinking that there are a set of underlying functions 
that beg for better tools - something like a distributed CVS that's 
optimized for planning documents rather than software (or perhaps 
something like a modernized Lotus Notes).

And I keep thinking that the obvious architectural model is to treat 
each document (maybe each page) as an actor ("smart documents" if you 
will), with communication through publish-subscribe mechanisms. Interact 
with a (copy of) a document, changes get pushed to groups of documents 
via a pub-sub mechanism.  (Not unlike actor based simulation approaches.)

And, of course, when I think actors, I think Erlang.  The obvious 
conceptualization is "every document is an actor."

At which point an obvious question comes up:  How to handle long-term 
persistence, for large numbers of inactive entities.

But... when I go looking for examples of systems that might be built 
this way, I keep finding that, even in Erlang-based systems, persistence 
is handled in fairly conventional ways:
- One might think that CouchDB treats every document as an actor, but 
think again
- Paulo Negri has given some great presentations on how Wooga implements 
large-scale social gaming - and they implement an actor per session - 
but when a user goes off-line they push state into a more conventional 
database  (then initialize a gen_server from the database, when the user 
comes back online)

At which point the phrase "actor-oriented database" keeps coming back to 
mind, with the obvious analogy to "object-oriented databases."  I.e., 
something with the persistence and other characteristics of a database, 
where the contents are actors - with all the characteristics and 
functionality of those actors preserved while stored in the database.

ON TO THE QUESTIONS:
I have a pretty good understanding of how one would build things like 
simulations, or protocol servers, with Erlang - not so much how one 
might build something with long-term persistence - which leads to some 
questions (some, probably naive):

1. So far, I haven't seen anything that actually looks like an 
"actor-oriented database."  Document databases implemented in Erlang, 
yes (e.g., CouchDB), but every example I find ultimately pushes 
persistent data into files or a more conventional database of some 
sort.  Can anybody point to an example of something that looks more like 
"storing actors in a database?"
- It strikes me that the core issues with doing so have to do with 
maintaining "aliveness" - i.e., dealing with addressability, routing 
messages to a stored actor, waking up after a timeout (i.e., the 
equivalent of triggers)

2. One obvious (if simplistic) thought: Does one really need to think in 
terms of a "database" at all - or might this problem be approached 
simply by creating each document as an Erlang process, and keeping it 
around forever?  Most of what I've seen built in Erlang focuses on 
relatively short-lived actors - I'd be really interested in comments on:
- limitations/issues in persisting 100s of 1000s, or maybe millions of 
actors, for extended periods of time (years, or decades)
- are there any tools/models for migrating (swapping?) inactive 
processes dynamically to/from disk storage

3. What about backup for the state of a process?  'Let it crash' is 
great for servers supporting a reliable protocol, not so great for an 
actor that has  internal state that has to be preserved (like a 
simulated tank, or a "smart document"). Pushing into a database is 
obvious, but...
- are there any good models for saving/restoring state within a tree of 
supervised processes?
- what about models for synchronizing state across replicated copies of 
processes running on different nodes?
- what about backup/restore of entire Erlang VMs (including anything 
that might be swapped out onto disk)

4. For communications between/among actors:  Erlang is obviously 
excellent for writing pub-sub engines (RabbitMQ and ejabberd come to 
mind), but what about pub-sub or multicast/broadcast models or messaging 
between Erlang processes?  Are there any good libraries for 
defining/managing process groups, and doing multicast or broadcast 
messaging to/among a group of processes.

Thank you very much for any pointers or thoughts.

Miles Fidelman




-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra




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