[erlang-questions] Time for OTP to be Renamed?

kraythe . <>
Thu Feb 13 20:04:43 CET 2014


Im not trying to troll anything. I stated my case, someone asked me a
question and I answered it. If someone took offense, it wasn't intended.
Now having stated my case I intend to drop it and do something more
productive. :) I think we are all repeating ourselves here now so I intend
to stop that now as it just wastes bandwidth.

*Robert Simmons Jr. MSc. - Lead Java Architect @ EA*
*Author of: Hardcore Java (2003) and Maintainable Java (2012)*
*LinkedIn: **http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39
<http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39>*


On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya <
> wrote:

> "Don't Feed The Trolls"
>
> That is all
>
> Me, I'm off for some well-deserved mortadella and lambrusco...
>
>
>
> *Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya
> <http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/204a87f81a0d9764c1f3364f53e8facf.png>That
> tall bald Indian guy.. *
> *Google+ <https://plus.google.com/u/0/108074935470209044442/posts>  | Blog
> <http://dieswaytoofast.blogspot.com/>   | Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/dieswaytoofast>  | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/dieswaytoofast>*
>
> On February 13, 2014 at 7:46:30 PM, Steve Vinoski (<//>)
> wrote:
>
> Your trolling game is quickly falling apart.
>
> Anybody know how to mute a single thread on this list?
>
> --steve
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 1:28 PM, kraythe . <> wrote:
>
>>   Why not learn instead of sell?
>>
>>
>>  Because the bank wont take "I learned Erlang this month" in lie of my
>> car payment or mortgage. Because innovations are rarely created for the
>> purposes of "learn, not sell." Erlang itself was created to Sell, be under
>> no misunderstanding. If Ericson couldn't make a case to the "sellers" then
>> the language wouldn't have powered their switch. Because capitalism and
>> libertarianism work and communism and socialism eventually run out of other
>> people's money. And because I don't want to be someone living on someone
>> else's dime. I like to create, innovate, invent and get paid for it. That
>> lets me provide a better life for my family.
>>
>>   *Robert Simmons Jr. MSc. - Lead Java Architect @ EA*
>>  *Author of: Hardcore Java (2003) and Maintainable Java (2012)*
>>  *LinkedIn: **http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39>*
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:22 PM, John Kemp <> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/13/2014 11:44 AM, kraythe . wrote:
>>>
>>>> Cant agree with you John.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's fine :)
>>>
>>>
>>> In an organization you cant simply do what you
>>>> want and shrug.
>>>> If I tried that in any of the big organizations i have
>>>> been involved with my optimal case is being fired.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If I need to "convince" someone about the tech I want to use then I
>>> either wouldn't use that tech and would use what they wanted instead, or I
>>> would quit.
>>>
>>> It's absolutely the case that if you are driven by "social context" (by
>>> that I mean, roughly, "other people's concerns") alone, you won't choose
>>> Erlang.
>>>
>>> Although I would often choose Erlang for myself, I would often choose
>>> another language if I had a programmer of that language to work with, and a
>>> tight deadline.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, professional software developers should choose the best
>>> tool for the job -- and the job often includes more than the problem at
>>> hand, true. I like to make satisfied customers.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Perhaps if you own
>>>> the company you can. But then that relegates Erlang to niche. Makes the
>>>> old timers feel pretty superior
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I've said, you can *choose* whatever language you like, and barring
>>> the edge cases, you'll be able to build a workable, relatively scalable
>>> solution.
>>>
>>>
>>> but is a horrible waste of what appears
>>>> to me to be a very useful language. Also if you go that tact there is no
>>>> more point of arguing Erlang vs Scala or vs any language anymore. Erlang
>>>> will become like Smalltalk. Useful and cool for the old timers but
>>>> virtually IRRELEVANT in the IT industry.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Erlang makes efficient use of computing resources, specifically in
>>> distributed environments. It does several other clever things. It's also
>>> hard to learn (for some programmers) and doesn't come with a ready "market"
>>> of/for proficient software developers. But those who learn it tend to
>>> understand the problems which Erlang is good at solving. And they
>>> understand why the language choices made in Erlang might be made, in which
>>> case, they will often understand other languages better than average
>>> devlopers too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Furthermore, if you argue you don't care about adoption then the
>>>> discussion is moot with you. What
>>>>
>>>
>>> I will continue to explain what I have observed about the advantages of
>>> Erlang to those who will listen :)
>>>
>>>
>>> it will mean is whomever is on your
>>>> development staff writing Erlang you better be open to paying them
>>>> whatever they want and letting them get away with about anything because
>>>> replacing them would be nearly impossible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I usually work with people who are not in position to
>>> understand why one might use Erlang.
>>>
>>> Imagine that you have been initiated into a secret group of people who
>>> will help give you an advantage in your software projects that so few have.
>>> How could you use those skills?
>>>
>>>
>>>  Often many tech people cant
>>>> see past "oooh list comprehensions !!!!!!" to the actual business behind
>>>> it and without the business none of us get paid. That is not something
>>>> you can take to management and sell.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why not learn instead of sell?
>>>
>>> - johnk
>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Robert Simmons Jr. MSc. - Lead Java Architect @ EA*
>>>> /Author of: Hardcore Java (2003) and Maintainable Java (2012)/
>>>> /LinkedIn: //http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 10:33 AM, John Kemp <
>>>> <mailto:>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     On Feb 13, 2014, at 11:20 AM, kraythe . <
>>>>     <mailto:>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>              /Java as a language is big and complex, because it has a
>>>>>             lot of concepts directly inside the language./
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Ahh but here you are wrong. Java itself is analogous to Erlang
>>>>>     without OTP. you don't HAVE to use the JDK libraries beyond
>>>>>     java.lang. You would be a bit crazy reproducing the wheel if you
>>>>>     did so but it is not a requirement of writing java. In fact many
>>>>>     Java controlled micro devices only allow a very small subset of
>>>>>     the JDK to be used. So there is essentially no difference.
>>>>>
>>>>>     So Elang is to Java as the Java Development Kit is to the Open
>>>>>     Telecom Platform. And there is where we have the "marketing"
>>>>>     disconnect. Its not about changing functionality or a triviality
>>>>>     to be scoffed over. If we start with the premise that we want more
>>>>>     developers to learn and use Erlang then we have to consider how
>>>>>     the language and its nomenclature comes across to our audience.
>>>>>     You don't name a language the Scalable High Integration Technology
>>>>>     because the impression it leaves with adopters is ... unfortunate.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Why start with that premise instead of starting with the premise
>>>>     that developers should try to understand what is useful to them?
>>>>     That has nothing to do with marketing, and everything to do with
>>>>     software developers understanding their craft better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>     So if you DON'T care about people adopting the language, then the
>>>>>     discussion is academic and simply, as one reply put it, a waste of
>>>>>     time. Of course if you don't care about adoption then you are
>>>>>     wasting your time here because you wont be able to staff a
>>>>>     development crew, replace developers that leave or push the
>>>>>     language into an organization which isn't currently using it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Who is "you" in this case? Does the "Erlang community" want to get
>>>>     the language adopted more? Perhaps. Why would that matter to the
>>>>     Erlang community - how do they benefit? Why should those who already
>>>>     know and benefit from Erlang not simply continue to do so?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>     If you DO care about people adopting the language you have to
>>>>>     consider its marketing. If I many were to take Erlang to
>>>>>     management and propose it for a product the management would see
>>>>>     "Open Telecom Platform", object that the company isn't a telecom
>>>>>     company and that Erlang is mainly for telecom and that would be
>>>>>     the end of that.  In fact, if you really care about adoption you
>>>>>     are better off renaming it "Fred" than leaving it as "Open Telecom
>>>>>     Platform".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     People reject languages for all kinds of strange reasons. And it's
>>>>     the case that in many cases you can simply choose "a language you
>>>>     like" and then *make* it work for what you want to do. After all,
>>>>     computers have particular resources available to them, and a
>>>>     language well-adapted to its environment should support adequate
>>>>     performance for most applications. The distinction between threading
>>>>     in Ruby and "event-driven" in Node is largely meaningless, for
>>>>     example. The real questions are things like "how well does your
>>>>     VM/compiler exploit computer hardware resources on the platform
>>>>     you're using". Most developers don't understand this, so they argue
>>>>     about threads vs. processes vs. events without understanding what
>>>>     might actually be the critical differences regarding the performance
>>>>     they say they want.
>>>>
>>>>     Naming won't fix that. And management will never get that. You need
>>>>     people to understand what they are doing. Or not. After all, you can
>>>>     largely do what you like and apart from at the edges, it will likely
>>>>     work.
>>>>
>>>>     - johnk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>     Naming matters and it is also pretty easy to fix.
>>>>>
>>>>>      *Robert Simmons Jr. MSc. - Lead Java Architect @ EA*
>>>>>     /Author of: Hardcore Java (2003) and Maintainable Java (2012)/
>>>>>     /LinkedIn: //
>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 9:03 AM, Anthony Ramine <
>>>>>     <mailto:>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         That's a *HUGE* difference. Erlang as a language is very
>>>>>         small; OTP is a very complex piece of software, as is BEAM.
>>>>>         The three shouldn't be conflated.
>>>>>
>>>>>         Java as a language is big and complex, because it has a lot of
>>>>>         concepts directly inside the language.
>>>>>
>>>>>         --
>>>>>         Anthony Ramine
>>>>>
>>>>>         Le 13 févr. 2014 à 15:59, Vlad Dumitrescu <
>>>>>         <mailto:>> a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         > On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Anthony Ramine
>>>>>         < <mailto:>> wrote:
>>>>>         >> Java without OOP is a different language.
>>>>>         >> Erlang without OTP is still Erlang.
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         > IMHO the only difference is that OTP is implemented as a
>>>>>         library and
>>>>>         > doesn't have dedicated language syntax. I make difference
>>>>>         between OTP
>>>>>         > as design/system building guidelines and its implementation.
>>>>> The
>>>>>         > former is more like OOP for Java. The latter is more like
>>>>>         the JDK.
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         > /Vlad
>>>>>         >
>>>>>         >> --
>>>>>         >> Anthony Ramine
>>>>>         >>
>>>>>         >> Le 13 févr. 2014 à 15:21, Vlad Dumitrescu
>>>>>         < <mailto:>> a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>         >>
>>>>>         >>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Benoit Chesneau
>>>>>          < <mailto:>> wrote:
>>>>>         >>>> I also say Erlang/OTP and often I add to the one that ask
>>>>>         that OTP is
>>>>>         >>>> a framework, but then people are more puzzled than they
>>>>>         were before.
>>>>>         >>>> Maybe rust did the right things by  clearly separating
>>>>>         the language
>>>>>         >>>> and the runtime from the standard library and other libs ?
>>>>>         >>>
>>>>>         >>> I would say that OTP is to Erlang what OOP is to Java. You
>>>>>         can write
>>>>>         >>> Java programs that are not object-oriented, but why choose
>>>>>         Java for
>>>>>         >>> that in the first place?
>>>>>         >>>
>>>>>         >>> OTP is in my opinion a design philosophy that guides us
>>>>>         when it comes
>>>>>         >>> to structuring and developing distributed fault-tolerant
>>>>>         systems. It
>>>>>         >>> comes with library support that is intimately tied to the
>>>>>         Erlang
>>>>>         >>> libraries: the most basic Erlang apps (kernel and stdlib)
>>>>>         are also the
>>>>>         >>> ones that implement the OTP concepts. Even more, Erlang
>>>>>         code is
>>>>>         >>> structured as applications, and an "application" is an OTP
>>>>>         concept!
>>>>>         >>>
>>>>>         >>> I can only see meaning in trying to separate the language
>>>>>         from OTP
>>>>>         >>> either as an academic exercise or in order to implement a
>>>>>         different
>>>>>         >>> language on the beam runtime and the new concepts would
>>>>>         collide
>>>>>         >>> implementation-wise with OTP. Or one wants to create OTP
>>>>>         2.0 without
>>>>>         >>> interference with 1.0.
>>>>>         >>>
>>>>>         >>> regards,
>>>>>         >>> Vlad
>>>>>
>>>>>         >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>         >>> erlang-questions mailing list
>>>>>         >>> 
>>>>>          <mailto:>
>>>>>
>>>>>         >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>>>>         >>
>>>>>
>>>>>         _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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