<div dir="ltr">Im not trying to troll anything. I stated my case, someone asked me a question and I answered it. If someone took offense, it wasn't intended. Now having stated my case I intend to drop it and do something more productive. :) I think we are all repeating ourselves here now so I intend to stop that now as it just wastes bandwidth. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><b>Robert Simmons Jr. MSc. - Lead Java Architect @ EA</b></div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><i>Author of: Hardcore Java (2003) and Maintainable Java (2012)</i></div>
<div><i style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">LinkedIn: </i><font face="arial"><i><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39</a></i></font></div>
</div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mahesh@dieswaytoofast.com" target="_blank">mahesh@dieswaytoofast.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:12px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
“Don’t Feed The Trolls”</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:12px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:12px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
That is all</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:12px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:12px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
Me, I’m off for some well-deserved mortadella and lambrusco…</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:12px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:12px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div> <div><div style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-wrap:break-word"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:15px"><b><div style="font-style:italic;margin:0px;font-family:Calibri">
<b style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"><a href="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/204a87f81a0d9764c1f3364f53e8facf.png" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya</a></b></div><div style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri">
<span style="font-weight:normal">That tall bald Indian guy..</span> <br>
</div></b></span></font></div></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-wrap:break-word"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:15px"><b><div style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri">
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;word-wrap:break-word"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><div style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(1,108,226)">
<a href="https://plus.google.com/u/0/108074935470209044442/posts" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">Google+</a><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> | <a href="http://dieswaytoofast.blogspot.com/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(1,108,226)">Blog</span></a></span> <span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> | <span style="color:rgb(1,108,226)"><a href="https://twitter.com/dieswaytoofast" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">Twitter</a></span></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> | </span><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/dieswaytoofast" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a></div>
</span></div></div></div></b></span></font></div></div></div></div> <br><p style="color:#a0a0a8">On February 13, 2014 at 7:46:30 PM, Steve Vinoski (<a href="mailto://vinoski@ieee.org" target="_blank">vinoski@ieee.org</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite"><span><div><div>
<div dir="ltr">Your trolling game is quickly falling apart.
<div><br></div>
<div>Anybody know how to mute a single thread on this list?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>--steve</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 1:28 PM, kraythe .
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kraythe@gmail.com" target="_blank">kraythe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Why not learn instead of
sell?</span></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
</div>
<div>Because the bank wont take "I learned Erlang this month" in
lie of my car payment or mortgage. Because innovations are rarely
created for the purposes of "learn, not sell." Erlang itself was
created to Sell, be under no misunderstanding. If Ericson couldn't
make a case to the "sellers" then the language wouldn't have
powered their switch. Because capitalism and libertarianism work
and communism and socialism eventually run out of other people's
money. And because I don't want to be someone living on someone
else's dime. I like to create, innovate, invent and get paid for
it. That lets me provide a better life for my family. </div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><div class=""><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><b>Robert Simmons
Jr. MSc. - Lead Java Architect @ EA</b></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small"><i>Author of:
Hardcore Java (2003) and Maintainable Java (2012)</i></div>
</div>
<div><i style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">LinkedIn: </i><font face="arial"><i><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39</a></i></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div><div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:22 PM, John
Kemp <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:john@jkemp.net" target="_blank">john@jkemp.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>On 02/13/2014 11:44 AM, kraythe . wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Cant agree with you John.<br></blockquote>
<br></div>
That's fine :)
<div><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">In
an organization you cant simply do what you<br>
want and shrug.<br>
If I tried that in any of the big organizations i have<br>
been involved with my optimal case is being
fired.<br></blockquote>
<br></div>
If I need to "convince" someone about the tech I want to use then I
either wouldn't use that tech and would use what they wanted
instead, or I would quit.<br>
<br>
It's absolutely the case that if you are driven by "social context"
(by that I mean, roughly, "other people's concerns") alone, you
won't choose Erlang.<br>
<br>
Although I would often choose Erlang for myself, I would often
choose another language if I had a programmer of that language to
work with, and a tight deadline.<br>
<br>
In my opinion, professional software developers should choose the
best tool for the job -- and the job often includes more than the
problem at hand, true. I like to make satisfied customers.
<div><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Perhaps if you own<br>
the company you can. But then that relegates Erlang to niche. Makes
the<br>
old timers feel pretty superior<br></blockquote>
<br></div>
As I've said, you can *choose* whatever language you like, and
barring the edge cases, you'll be able to build a workable,
relatively scalable solution.
<div><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">but
is a horrible waste of what appears<br>
to me to be a very useful language. Also if you go that tact there
is no<br>
more point of arguing Erlang vs Scala or vs any language anymore.
Erlang<br>
will become like Smalltalk. Useful and cool for the old timers
but<br>
virtually IRRELEVANT in the IT industry.<br></blockquote>
<br></div>
Erlang makes efficient use of computing resources, specifically in
distributed environments. It does several other clever things. It's
also hard to learn (for some programmers) and doesn't come with a
ready "market" of/for proficient software developers. But those who
learn it tend to understand the problems which Erlang is good at
solving. And they understand why the language choices made in
Erlang might be made, in which case, they will often understand
other languages better than average devlopers too.
<div><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Furthermore, if you argue you don't care about adoption then
the<br>
discussion is moot with you. What<br></blockquote>
<br></div>
I will continue to explain what I have observed about the
advantages of Erlang to those who will listen :)
<div><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">it
will mean is whomever is on your<br>
development staff writing Erlang you better be open to paying
them<br>
whatever they want and letting them get away with about anything
because<br>
replacing them would be nearly impossible.<br></blockquote>
<br></div>
Unfortunately, I usually work with people who are not in position
to understand why one might use Erlang.<br>
<br>
Imagine that you have been initiated into a secret group of people
who will help give you an advantage in your software projects that
so few have. How could you use those skills?
<div><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Often many tech people cant<br>
see past "oooh list comprehensions !!!!!!" to the actual business
behind<br>
it and without the business none of us get paid. That is not
something<br>
you can take to management and sell.<br></blockquote>
<br></div>
Why not learn instead of sell?<br>
<br>
- johnk<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
*Robert Simmons Jr. MSc. - Lead Java Architect @ EA*<br>
/Author of: Hardcore Java (2003) and Maintainable Java
(2012)/<br>
/LinkedIn: //<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39/" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39/</a>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 10:33 AM, John Kemp <<a href="mailto:john@jkemp.net" target="_blank">john@jkemp.net</a><br></div>
<div><mailto:<a href="mailto:john@jkemp.net" target="_blank">john@jkemp.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
On Feb 13, 2014, at 11:20 AM, kraythe . <<a href="mailto:kraythe@gmail.com" target="_blank">kraythe@gmail.com</a><br></div>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:kraythe@gmail.com" target="_blank">kraythe@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
/Java as a language is
big and complex, because it has a<br>
lot of concepts directly
inside the language./
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
Ahh but here you are wrong. Java itself is analogous
to Erlang<br>
without OTP. you don't HAVE to use the JDK libraries
beyond<br>
java.lang. You would be a bit crazy reproducing the
wheel if you<br>
did so but it is not a requirement of writing java.
In fact many<br>
Java controlled micro devices only allow a very small
subset of<br>
the JDK to be used. So there is essentially no
difference.<br>
<br>
So Elang is to Java as the Java Development Kit is to
the Open<br>
Telecom Platform. And there is where we have the
"marketing"<br>
disconnect. Its not about changing functionality or a
triviality<br>
to be scoffed over. If we start with the premise that
we want more<br>
developers to learn and use Erlang then we have to
consider how<br>
the language and its nomenclature comes across to our
audience.<br>
You don't name a language the Scalable High
Integration Technology<br>
because the impression it leaves with adopters is ...
unfortunate.<br></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div><br>
Why start with that premise instead of starting with
the premise<br>
that developers should try to understand what is
useful to them?<br>
That has nothing to do with marketing, and everything
to do with<br>
software developers understanding their craft
better.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
So if you DON'T care about people adopting the
language, then the<br>
discussion is academic and simply, as one reply put
it, a waste of<br>
time. Of course if you don't care about adoption then
you are<br>
wasting your time here because you wont be able to
staff a<br>
development crew, replace developers that leave or
push the<br>
language into an organization which isn't currently
using it.<br></blockquote>
<br>
Who is “you” in this case? Does the “Erlang
community” want to get<br>
the language adopted more? Perhaps. Why would that
matter to the<br>
Erlang community - how do they benefit? Why should
those who already<br>
know and benefit from Erlang not simply continue to
do so?<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
If you DO care about people adopting the language you
have to<br>
consider its marketing. If I many were to take Erlang
to<br>
management and propose it for a product the
management would see<br>
"Open Telecom Platform", object that the company
isn't a telecom<br>
company and that Erlang is mainly for telecom and
that would be<br>
the end of that. In fact, if you really care
about adoption you<br>
are better off renaming it "Fred" than leaving it as
"Open Telecom<br>
Platform”.<br></blockquote>
<br>
People reject languages for all kinds of strange
reasons. And it’s<br>
the case that in many cases you can simply choose “a
language you<br>
like” and then *make* it work for what you want to
do. After all,<br>
computers have particular resources available to
them, and a<br>
language well-adapted to its environment should
support adequate<br>
performance for most applications. The distinction
between threading<br>
in Ruby and “event-driven” in Node is largely
meaningless, for<br>
example. The real questions are things like “how well
does your<br>
VM/compiler exploit computer hardware resources on
the platform<br>
you’re using”. Most developers don’t understand this,
so they argue<br>
about threads vs. processes vs. events without
understanding what<br>
might actually be the critical differences regarding
the performance<br>
they say they want.<br>
<br>
Naming won’t fix that. And management will never get
that. You need<br>
people to understand what they are doing. Or not.
After all, you can<br>
largely do what you like and apart from at the edges,
it will likely<br>
work.<br>
<br>
- johnk<br>
<br></div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div><br>
Naming matters and it is also pretty easy to
fix.<br>
<br></div>
</div>
*Robert Simmons Jr. MSc. - Lead Java Architect @
EA*<br>
/Author of: Hardcore Java (2003) and Maintainable
Java (2012)/<br>
/LinkedIn: //<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39/" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39/</a>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 9:03 AM, Anthony Ramine
<<a href="mailto:n.oxyde@gmail.com" target="_blank">n.oxyde@gmail.com</a><br></div>
<div> <mailto:<a href="mailto:n.oxyde@gmail.com" target="_blank">n.oxyde@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
That’s a *HUGE* difference. Erlang as a
language is very<br>
small; OTP is a very complex piece of
software, as is BEAM.<br>
The three shouldn’t be conflated.<br>
<br>
Java as a language is big and complex,
because it has a lot of<br>
concepts directly inside the
language.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Anthony Ramine<br>
<br>
Le 13 févr. 2014 à 15:59, Vlad
Dumitrescu <<a href="mailto:vladdu55@gmail.com" target="_blank">vladdu55@gmail.com</a><br></div>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:vladdu55@gmail.com" target="_blank">vladdu55@gmail.com</a>>> a écrit :
<div><br>
<br>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 3:46 PM,
Anthony Ramine<br></div>
<div> <<a href="mailto:n.oxyde@gmail.com" target="_blank">n.oxyde@gmail.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:n.oxyde@gmail.com" target="_blank">n.oxyde@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>> Java without OOP is a
different language.<br>
>> Erlang without OTP is still
Erlang.<br>
><br>
> IMHO the only difference is that
OTP is implemented as a<br>
library and<br>
> doesn't have dedicated language
syntax. I make difference<br>
between OTP<br>
> as design/system building
guidelines and its implementation. The<br>
> former is more like OOP for Java.
The latter is more like<br>
the JDK.<br>
><br>
> /Vlad<br>
><br>
>> --<br>
>> Anthony Ramine<br>
>><br>
>> Le 13 févr. 2014 à 15:21, Vlad
Dumitrescu<br></div>
<<a href="mailto:vladdu55@gmail.com" target="_blank">vladdu55@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:vladdu55@gmail.com" target="_blank">vladdu55@gmail.com</a>>> a écrit :
<div><br>
>><br>
>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at
2:09 PM, Benoit Chesneau<br></div>
<div>
<div> <<a href="mailto:bchesneau@gmail.com" target="_blank">bchesneau@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bchesneau@gmail.com" target="_blank">bchesneau@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>>>> I also say Erlang/OTP
and often I add to the one that ask<br>
that OTP is<br>
>>>> a framework, but then
people are more puzzled than they<br>
were before.<br>
>>>> Maybe rust did the
right things by clearly separating<br>
the language<br>
>>>> and the runtime from
the standard library and other libs ?<br>
>>><br>
>>> I would say that OTP is to
Erlang what OOP is to Java. You<br>
can write<br>
>>> Java programs that are not
object-oriented, but why choose<br>
Java for<br>
>>> that in the first
place?<br>
>>><br>
>>> OTP is in my opinion a
design philosophy that guides us<br>
when it comes<br>
>>> to structuring and
developing distributed fault-tolerant<br>
systems. It<br>
>>> comes with library support
that is intimately tied to the<br>
Erlang<br>
>>> libraries: the most basic
Erlang apps (kernel and stdlib)<br>
are also the<br>
>>> ones that implement the
OTP concepts. Even more, Erlang<br>
code is<br>
>>> structured as
applications, and an "application" is an OTP<br>
concept!<br>
>>><br>
>>> I can only see meaning in
trying to separate the language<br>
from OTP<br>
>>> either as an academic
exercise or in order to implement a<br>
different<br>
>>> language on the beam
runtime and the new concepts would<br>
collide<br>
>>> implementation-wise with
OTP. Or one wants to create OTP<br>
2.0 without<br>
>>> interference with
1.0.<br>
>>><br>
>>> regards,<br>
>>> Vlad<div class=""><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> erlang-questions mailing
list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" target="_blank">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a><br></div></div>
</div>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" target="_blank">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>>
<div><br>
>>> <a href="http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions" target="_blank">http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions</a><br>
>><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
erlang-questions mailing
list<br></div>
<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" target="_blank">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" target="_blank">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>>
<div><br>
<a href="http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions" target="_blank">http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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</blockquote><div class="">
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
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