From essen@REDACTED Thu Feb 1 12:49:15 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:49:15 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Missing math functions Message-ID: Hello, While reviewing some functions in SDL2 while traveling yesterday I found two which have no equivalent in Erlang. There is copysign which takes two float numbers and apply the second's sign to the first. And there is scalbn (also known as ldexp, apparently) which does x*2^i where x is a double and i is an integer. I'm not sure what it's used for to be honest. Is there a reason these are not in the math module? I can always add functions for SDL_copysign and SDL_scalbn in the NIF but if they could be useful in Erlang itself, all the better. Cheers, -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED Thu Feb 1 14:32:22 2018 From: jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED (Jesper Louis Andersen) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 13:32:22 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Missing math functions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:49 PM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > And there is scalbn (also known as ldexp, apparently) which does x*2^i > where x is a double and i is an integer. I'm not sure what it's used for > to be honest. > > ldexp is used together with its cousin, frexp. The frexp function can "split" a floating point number in its exponent and mantissa parts. And ldexp recombines them back. This allows you to have explicit control over a situation where overlfow or underflow might happen: you can get at the underlying FP representation without bitwise tricks (so that it is portable), manipulate your number and reassemble it. Erlang's floating point numbers are handled differently than in most languages. Some of this is a trade-off: in Erlang, we prefer errors to occur when you do something bad, rather than a propagation of the error. The latter is a NaN. As a result, Erlang doesn't allow certain things: * -0.0 is eliminated to 0.0 * No NaNs * No Infty/-Infty. This is a pure headache in the eministat library currently. It does produce the need for you to map external fp numbers into a way which Erlang accepts internally. OTOH, it does eliminate some subtle bugs where a NaN is propagated way too long in the program and you don't know where the error occurred in the first place. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauravprakash2968@REDACTED Fri Feb 2 05:30:11 2018 From: sauravprakash2968@REDACTED (Saurav Prakash) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 10:00:11 +0530 Subject: [erlang-questions] Erlang mnesia node getting isolated from cluster Message-ID: I have an erlang(release 17.3) mnesia cluster of 3 nodes running in 1 datacenter with disk+ram based tables. Once in a while I would see that one node at random,say A, would show other 2 nodes as stopped(stopped_db_nodes). Also other 2 nodes, say B and C would show A in stopped_db_nodes. This basically leaves the cluster partitioned although no network split actually happens.The call to erlang:nodes() on all 3 nodes return the whole cluster.I don't even see mnesia system events of partition,maybe because the erlang node never went down. Is there a bug somewhere in mnesia that causes false network partitions? What would be the right way to remedy this? We are thinking about turning majority on in the cluster. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kenneth@REDACTED Fri Feb 2 09:57:02 2018 From: kenneth@REDACTED (Kenneth Lundin) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:57:02 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] ets reference form name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The current plan is to introduce an ets:whereis/1 function returning the table reference in OTP 21. Using the reference to access the table will be more efficient than using the name. OTP 21 is planned for release mid June but with release candidate in May. /Regards Kenneth, Erlang/OTP Ericsson On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Karlo Kuna wrote: > is there any time frame for this feature? > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Kenneth Lundin > wrote: > >> It is currently not possible to get the Table Id (tid()) from a named ets >> table. >> We have recently discussed to add a function ets:whereis/1 or >> ets:name2id/1 for this purpose so we have it in our backlog. >> >> /Kenneth Erlang/OTP team at Ericsson >> >> On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Karlo Kuna wrote: >> >>> how to get table reference form table name of named table of ets table? >>> >>> thak you >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dgud@REDACTED Fri Feb 2 11:57:05 2018 From: dgud@REDACTED (Dan Gudmundsson) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2018 10:57:05 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Erlang mnesia node getting isolated from cluster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If they report each other as down, then node A have lost connection with the other nodes sometime ago. Or at least the process links between mnesia on A and B, A and C where broken. Erlang distribution will by default reconnect to the nodes as you send a msg between A and B and the erlang-network will be reconnected, though mnesia should detect that the network was partitioned and should not reconnect. So my guess it that the erlang connection was down for a short period of time, or during the start and they never had (or could get) a connection when mnesia started on A, and afterwards node A connected to and B,C where mnesia was already started, but that should also generated a partitioned_network event. /Dan On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 6:38 AM Saurav Prakash wrote: > I have an erlang(release 17.3) mnesia cluster of 3 nodes running in 1 > datacenter with disk+ram based tables. Once in a while I would see that one > node at random,say A, would show other 2 nodes as > stopped(stopped_db_nodes). Also other 2 nodes, say B and C would show A in > stopped_db_nodes. This basically leaves the cluster partitioned although no > network split actually happens.The call to erlang:nodes() on all 3 nodes > return the whole cluster.I don't even see mnesia system events of > partition,maybe because the erlang node never went down. > > Is there a bug somewhere in mnesia that causes false network partitions? > What would be the right way to remedy this? We are thinking about turning > majority on in the cluster. > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natalia.chechina@REDACTED Fri Feb 2 10:30:08 2018 From: natalia.chechina@REDACTED (Natalia Chechina) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:30:08 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] [CALL FOR PAPERS] 17th Erlang Workshop 2018 -- 29 Sept 2018 -- St. Louis, Missouri, US Message-ID: Technical, practice, and application papers related to Erlang, BEAM, Elixir, Scala/Akka, CloudHaskell, Lisp Flavoured Erlang, OCaml, and functional programming are welcome and encouraged. 1ST CALL FOR PAPERS =============== Seventeenth ACM SIGPLAN Erlang Workshop http://erlang.org/workshop/2018/ ----------------------------------------------------------- St. Louis, Missouri, United States, 29 September 2018 Satellite event of the 23rd ACM SIGPLAN International Conference on Functional Programming (ICFP 2018) 23 - 29 September, 2018 The Erlang Workshop aims to bring together the open source, academic, and industrial communities of Erlang, to discuss technologies and languages related to Erlang. The Erlang model of concurrent programming has been widely emulated, for example by Akka in Scala, and even new programming languages were designed atop of the Erlang VM, such as Elixir. Therefore we would like to broaden the scope of the workshop to include systems like those mentioned above. The workshop will enable participants to familiarize themselves with recent developments on new techniques and tools, novel applications, draw lessons from users' experiences and identify research problems and common areas relevant to the practice of Erlang, Erlang-like languages, functional programming, distribution, concurrency etc. We invite three types of submissions. 1. Technical papers describing language extensions, critical discussions of the status quo, formal semantics of language constructs, program analysis and transformation, virtual machine extensions and compilation techniques, implementations and interfaces of Erlang in/with other languages, and new tools (profilers, tracers, debuggers, testing frameworks, etc.). Submission related to Erlang, Elixir, Scala/Akka, CloudHaskell, Lisp Flavoured Erlang, OCaml, and functional programming are welcome and encouraged. The maximum length for technical papers is restricted to 12 pages. 2. Practice and application papers describing uses of Erlang in the "real-world", Erlang libraries for specific tasks, experiences from using Erlang in specific application domains, reusable programming idioms and elegant new ways of using Erlang to approach or solve a particular problem. The maximum length for the practice and application papers is restricted to 12 pages. 3. Poster presentations describing topics related to the workshop goals. Each includes a maximum of 2 pages of the abstract and summary. Presentations in this category will be given an hour of shared simultaneous demonstration time. Note that the above are maximum lengths; we welcome shorter papers also, and the program committee will evaluate all papers on an equal basis independent of their lengths. Workshop Co-Chairs ------------------ Natalia Chechina, Bournemouth University, UK Adrian Francalanza, University of Malta, Malta Program Committee ----------------------------- (Note: the Workshop Co-Chairs are also committee members) Scott Lystig Fritchie, Wallaroo, USA James S. Larson, Google, USA Richard Carlsson, Klarna, Sweden Laura M. Castro, University of A Coru?a Vikt?ria F?rd?s, Klarna, Sweden Laura Bocchi, University of Kent, UK Rumyana Neykova, Imperial College, UK Roland Kuhn, Actyx, Germany Rocco De Nicola, IMT Lucca, Italy Emanuele D?Osulado, Imperial College, UK Mark Sheldon, Tufts Univesrity, USA James Fish, Pinterest, USA Tam?s Kozsik, E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Hungary Important Dates ----------------------- Submission deadline: Fri June 15, 2018 Author notification: Fri July 13, 2018 Final submission for the publisher: Sat August 4, 2018 Workshop date: Sat September 29, 2018 Instructions to authors -------------------------------- Papers must be submitted online via EasyChair (via the "Erlang2018" event). The submission page is https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=erlang18. Submitted papers should be in portable document format (PDF), formatted using the ACM SIGPLAN style guidelines. Each submission must adhere to SIGPLAN's republication policy. Violation risks summary rejection of the offending submission. Accepted papers will be published by the ACM and will appear in the ACM Digital Library. The proceedings will be freely available for download from the ACM Digital Library from one week before the start of the conference until two weeks after the conference. Paper submissions will be considered for poster submission in the case they are not accepted as full papers. Venue & Registration Details ------------------------------------------ For registration, please see the ICFP 2018 web site at: http://icfp18.sigplan.org/ Related Links -------------------- ICFP 2018 web site: http://icfp18.sigplan.org/ Past ACM SIGPLAN Erlang workshops: http://www.erlang.org/workshop/ Open Source Erlang: http://www.erlang.org/ EasyChair submission site: https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=erlang18 Author Information for SIGPLAN Conferences: http://www.sigplan.org/authorInformation.htm Atendee Information for SIGPLAN Events: http://www.sigplan.org/Resources/Policies/CodeOfConduct/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED Fri Feb 2 20:33:53 2018 From: krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED (Krzysztof Jurewicz) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2018 20:33:53 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] [ANN] nist_beacon 0.1.0 Message-ID: <87wozvp4ny.fsf@gmail.com> I?m pleased to announce the initial release of nist_beacon ? a wrapper for NIST Randomness Beacon, which can be used to obtain entropy from a public source. Repository: https://gitlab.com/KrzysiekJ/nist_beacon More about the beacon: https://www.nist.gov/programs-projects/nist-randomness-beacon The application is not complete and it does not perform neither signature nor blockchain verification (it will likely get signature verification before Ercoin is released). It uses the 2.0 (beta) API which does not seem to be documented on the beacon?s website yet. Contributions and feedback are welcome. From codewiget95@REDACTED Fri Feb 2 22:57:04 2018 From: codewiget95@REDACTED (asdf asdf) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 16:57:04 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Security ForTLS Distribution Message-ID: <5bead7f4-1cfa-4968-b884-a8f94789a12c@Spark> Hello, I am working on the final deployment push. Since we are hosting some servers at AWS and some in another location, and we would like to cluster our nodes and use rpc?s, we added distribution over TLS. From my understanding, this changes the standard Erlang rpc?s to use use TLS connections rather than standard TCP. From this article on erlang-solutions.com:?https://www.erlang-solutions.com/blog/erlang-distribution-over-tls.html?it is noted that a next concern is epmd, and how it is a security concern as it?s connection is over TCP. How should we address this? Is there a fix? And are there any other security concerns that need addressing before connecting nodes across multiple data centers? Thanks for your advice! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g@REDACTED Sat Feb 3 17:44:49 2018 From: g@REDACTED (Guilherme Andrade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 16:44:49 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Security ForTLS Distribution In-Reply-To: <5bead7f4-1cfa-4968-b884-a8f94789a12c@Spark> References: <5bead7f4-1cfa-4968-b884-a8f94789a12c@Spark> Message-ID: Hi, On 2 February 2018 at 21:57, asdf asdf wrote: > I am working on the final deployment push. Since we are hosting some > servers at AWS and some in another location, and we would like to cluster > our nodes and use rpc?s, we added distribution over TLS. From my > understanding, this changes the standard Erlang rpc?s to use use TLS > connections rather than standard TCP. > > From this article on erlang-solutions.com: https:// > www.erlang-solutions.com/blog/erlang-distribution-over-tls.html it is > noted that a next concern is epmd, and how it is a security concern as it?s > connection is over TCP. > > How should we address this? Is there a fix? And are there any other > security concerns that need addressing before connecting nodes across > multiple data centers? > I was faced with a similar problem some time ago. Because of all the gotchas and potential pitfalls I encountered (which, unfairly, I can no longer recall with clarity), I decided instead to go with RPC that doesn't depend on distribution. For this, I created backwater[1], as most common RPC solutions require a lot of boilerplate type conversions and/or maintenance. It can generate the client code boilerplate necessary to call remote modules, and it uses the external term format[2] for both function arguments and return values. Depending on what sort of data you want to be passing around, this might be a good fit. But hopefully someone else will be able to answer your actual question instead of dabbling in self-promotion :-). [1]: https://github.com/g-andrade/backwater [2]: http://erlang.org/doc/apps/erts/erl_ext_dist.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrewp.haine@REDACTED Sun Feb 4 15:22:24 2018 From: andrewp.haine@REDACTED (Andrew Haine) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:22:24 +0200 Subject: [erlang-questions] Starting an Erlang node in embedded mode Message-ID: Is there any way to start my application on an Erlang node in embedded start up? I receive the following output in log/erlang.log.1: =PROGRESS REPORT==== 3-Feb-2018::08:08:10 === application: myapplication started_at: nonode@REDACTED I've tried a bunch of things to change that: sys.config myapplication.app but have not had any luck. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g@REDACTED Sun Feb 4 23:31:00 2018 From: g@REDACTED (Guilherme Andrade) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 22:31:00 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] [ANN] backwater 3.0.0 Message-ID: Hello list, I'm pleased to announce the release of backwater 3.0.0, a library that allows you to call remote modules (RPC) without depending on the distribution protocol. Key changes: - The API was greatly simplified - The rebar3 plugin for generating boilerplate was moved into a separate project Info: * Overview: https://github.com/g-andrade/backwater/blob/master/README.md * Hex.pm package: https://hex.pm/packages/backwater -- Guilherme -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From icfp.publicity@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 08:33:21 2018 From: icfp.publicity@REDACTED (Lindsey Kuper) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2018 23:33:21 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Second Call for Papers: PACMPL issue ICFP 2018 Message-ID: <5a7808c18d215_2e33fe5a9c53be459562@landin.local.mail> PACMPL Volume 2, Issue ICFP 2018 Call for Papers accepted papers to be invited for presentation at The 23rd ACM SIGPLAN International Conference on Functional Programming St. Louis, Missouri, USA http://icfp18.sigplan.org/ ### Important dates Submissions due: 16 March 2018 (Friday) Anywhere on Earth https://icfp18.hotcrp.com Author response: 2 May (Wednesday) - 4 May (Friday) 14:00 UTC Notification: 18 May (Friday) Final copy due: 22 June (Friday) Conference: 24 September (Monday) - 26 September (Wednesday) ### About PACMPL Proceedings of the ACM on Programming Languages (PACMPL ) is a Gold Open Access journal publishing research on all aspects of programming languages, from design to implementation and from mathematical formalisms to empirical studies. Each issue of the journal is devoted to a particular subject area within programming languages and will be announced through publicized Calls for Papers, like this one. ### Scope [PACMPL](https://pacmpl.acm.org/) issue ICFP 2018 seeks original papers on the art and science of functional programming. Submissions are invited on all topics from principles to practice, from foundations to features, and from abstraction to application. The scope includes all languages that encourage functional programming, including both purely applicative and imperative languages, as well as languages with objects, concurrency, or parallelism. Topics of interest include (but are not limited to): * *Language Design*: concurrency, parallelism, and distribution; modules; components and composition; metaprogramming; type systems; interoperability; domain-specific languages; and relations to imperative, object-oriented, or logic programming. * *Implementation*: abstract machines; virtual machines; interpretation; compilation; compile-time and run-time optimization; garbage collection and memory management; multi-threading; exploiting parallel hardware; interfaces to foreign functions, services, components, or low-level machine resources. * *Software-Development Techniques*: algorithms and data structures; design patterns; specification; verification; validation; proof assistants; debugging; testing; tracing; profiling. * *Foundations*: formal semantics; lambda calculus; rewriting; type theory; monads; continuations; control; state; effects; program verification; dependent types. * *Analysis and Transformation*: control-flow; data-flow; abstract interpretation; partial evaluation; program calculation. * *Applications*: symbolic computing; formal-methods tools; artificial intelligence; systems programming; distributed-systems and web programming; hardware design; databases; XML processing; scientific and numerical computing; graphical user interfaces; multimedia and 3D graphics programming; scripting; system administration; security. * *Education*: teaching introductory programming; parallel programming; mathematical proof; algebra. Submissions will be evaluated according to their relevance, correctness, significance, originality, and clarity. Each submission should explain its contributions in both general and technical terms, clearly identifying what has been accomplished, explaining why it is significant, and comparing it with previous work. The technical content should be accessible to a broad audience. PACMPL issue ICFP 2018 also welcomes submissions in two separate categories — Functional Pearls and Experience Reports — that must be marked as such at the time of submission and that need not report original research results. Detailed guidelines on both categories are given at the end of this call. Please contact the principal editor if you have questions or are concerned about the appropriateness of a topic. ### Preparation of submissions **Deadline**: The deadline for submissions is Friday, March 16, 2018, Anywhere on Earth (). This deadline will be strictly enforced. **Formatting**: Submissions must be in PDF format, printable in black and white on US Letter sized paper, and interpretable by common PDF tools. All submissions must adhere to the "ACM Small" template that is available (in both LaTeX and Word formats) from . For authors using LaTeX, a lighter-weight package, including only the essential files, is available from . There is a limit of 27 pages for a full paper or 14 pages for an Experience Report; in either case, the bibliography will not be counted against these limits. These page limits have been chosen to allow essentially the same amount of content with the new single-column format as was possible with the two-column format used in past ICFP conferences. Submissions that exceed the page limits or, for other reasons, do not meet the requirements for formatting, will be summarily rejected. See also PACMPL's Information and Guidelines for Authors at . **Submission**: Submissions will be accepted at Improved versions of a paper may be submitted at any point before the submission deadline using the same web interface. **Author Response Period**: Authors will have a 72-hour period, starting at 14:00 UTC on Wednesday, May 2, 2018, to read reviews and respond to them. **Supplementary Materials**: Authors have the option to attach supplementary material to a submission, on the understanding that reviewers may choose not to look at it. The material should be uploaded at submission time, as a single pdf or a tarball, not via a URL. This supplementary material may or may not be anonymized; if not anonymized, it will only be revealed to reviewers after they have submitted their review of the paper and learned the identity of the author(s). **Authorship Policies**: All submissions are expected to comply with the ACM Policies for Authorship that are detailed at . **Republication Policies**: Each submission must adhere to SIGPLAN's republication policy, as explained on the web at . **Resubmitted Papers**: Authors who submit a revised version of a paper that has previously been rejected by another conference have the option to attach an annotated copy of the reviews of their previous submission(s), explaining how they have addressed these previous reviews in the present submission. If a reviewer identifies him/herself as a reviewer of this previous submission and wishes to see how his/her comments have been addressed, the principal editor will communicate to this reviewer the annotated copy of his/her previous review. Otherwise, no reviewer will read the annotated copies of the previous reviews. ### Review Process This section outlines the two-stage process with lightweight double-blind reviewing that will be used to select papers for PACMPL issue ICFP 2018. We anticipate that there will be a need to clarify and expand on this process, and we will maintain a list of frequently asked questions and answers on the conference website to address common concerns. **PACMPL issue ICFP 2018 will employ a two-stage review process.** The first stage in the review process will assess submitted papers using the criteria stated above and will allow for feedback and input on initial reviews through the author response period mentioned previously. At the review meeting, a set of papers will be conditionally accepted and all other papers will be rejected. Authors will be notified of these decisions on May 18, 2018. Authors of conditionally accepted papers will be provided with committee reviews (just as in previous conferences) along with a set of mandatory revisions. After five weeks (June 22, 2018), the authors will provide a second submission. The second and final reviewing phase assesses whether the mandatory revisions have been adequately addressed by the authors and thereby determines the final accept/reject status of the paper. The intent and expectation is that the mandatory revisions can be addressed within five weeks and hence that conditionally accepted papers will in general be accepted in the second phase. The second submission should clearly identify how the mandatory revisions were addressed. To that end, the second submission must be accompanied by a cover letter mapping each mandatory revision request to specific parts of the paper. The cover letter will facilitate a quick second review, allowing for confirmation of final acceptance within two weeks. Conversely, the absence of a cover letter will be grounds for the paper?s rejection. **PACMPL issue ICFP 2018 will employ a lightweight double-blind reviewing process.** To facilitate this, submitted papers must adhere to two rules: 1. **author names and institutions must be omitted**, and 2. **references to authors' own related work should be in the third person** (e.g., not "We build on our previous work ..." but rather "We build on the work of ..."). The purpose of this process is to help the reviewers come to an initial judgement about the paper without bias, not to make it impossible for them to discover the authors if they were to try. Nothing should be done in the name of anonymity that weakens the submission or makes the job of reviewing the paper more difficult (e.g., important background references should not be omitted or anonymized). In addition, authors should feel free to disseminate their ideas or draft versions of their paper as they normally would. For instance, authors may post drafts of their papers on the web or give talks on their research ideas. ### Information for Authors of Accepted Papers * As a condition of acceptance, final versions of all papers must adhere to the new ACM Small format. The page limits for final versions of papers will be increased to ensure that authors have space to respond to reviewer comments and mandatory revisions. * Authors of accepted submissions will be required to agree to one of the three ACM licensing options: open access on payment of a fee (**recommended**, and SIGPLAN can cover the cost as described next); copyright transfer to ACM; or retaining copyright but granting ACM exclusive publication rights. Further information about ACM author rights is available from . * PACMPL is a Gold Open Access journal. It will be archived in ACM?s Digital Library, but no membership or fee is required for access. Gold Open Access has been made possible by generous funding through ACM SIGPLAN, which will cover all open access costs in the event authors cannot. Authors who can cover the costs may do so by paying an Article Processing Charge (APC). PACMPL, SIGPLAN, and ACM Headquarters are committed to exploring routes to making Gold Open Access publication both affordable and sustainable. * ACM offers authors a range of copyright options, one of which is Creative Commons CC-BY publication; this is the option recommended by the PACMPL editorial board. A reasoned argument in favour of this option can be found in the article [Why CC-BY?](https://oaspa.org/why-cc-by/) published by OASPA, the Open Access Scholarly Publishers Association. * We intend that the papers will be freely available for download from the ACM Digital Library in perpetuity via the OpenTOC mechanism. * ACM Author-Izer is a unique service that enables ACM authors to generate and post links on either their home page or institutional repository for visitors to download the definitive version of their articles from the ACM Digital Library at no charge. Downloads through Author-Izer links are captured in official ACM statistics, improving the accuracy of usage and impact measurements. Consistently linking to the definitive version of an ACM article should reduce user confusion over article versioning. After an article has been published and assigned to the appropriate ACM Author Profile pages, authors should visit to learn how to create links for free downloads from the ACM DL. * At least one author of each accepted submissions will be expected to attend and present their paper at the conference. The schedule for presentations will be determined and shared with authors after the full program has been selected. Presentations will be videotaped and released online if the presenter consents. * The official publication date is the date the papers are made available in the ACM Digital Library. This date may be up to *two weeks prior* to the first day of the conference. The official publication date affects the deadline for any patent filings related to published work. ### Artifact Evaluation Authors of papers that are conditionally accepted in the first phase of the review process will be encouraged (but not required) to submit supporting materials for Artifact Evaluation. These items will then be reviewed by an Artifact Evaluation Committee, separate from the paper Review Committee, whose task is to assess how the artifacts support the work described in the associated paper. Papers that go through the Artifact Evaluation process successfully will receive a seal of approval printed on the papers themselves. Authors of accepted papers will be encouraged to make the supporting materials publicly available upon publication of the papers, for example, by including them as "source materials" in the ACM Digital Library. An additional seal will mark papers whose artifacts are made available, as outlined in the ACM guidelines for artifact badging. Participation in Artifact Evaluation is voluntary and will not influence the final decision regarding paper acceptance. Further information about the motivations and expectations for Artifact Evaluation can be found at . ### Special categories of papers In addition to research papers, PACMPL issue ICFP solicits two kinds of papers that do not require original research contributions: Functional Pearls, which are full papers, and Experience Reports, which are limited to half the length of a full paper. Authors submitting such papers should consider the following guidelines. #### Functional Pearls A Functional Pearl is an elegant essay about something related to functional programming. Examples include, but are not limited to: * a new and thought-provoking way of looking at an old idea * an instructive example of program calculation or proof * a nifty presentation of an old or new data structure * an interesting application of functional programming techniques * a novel use or exposition of functional programming in the classroom While pearls often demonstrate an idea through the development of a short program, there is no requirement or expectation that they do so. Thus, they encompass the notions of theoretical and educational pearls. Functional Pearls are valued as highly and judged as rigorously as ordinary papers, but using somewhat different criteria. In particular, a pearl is not required to report original research, but, it should be concise, instructive, and entertaining. A pearl is likely to be rejected if its readers get bored, if the material gets too complicated, if too much specialized knowledge is needed, or if the writing is inelegant. The key to writing a good pearl is polishing. A submission that is intended to be treated as a pearl must be marked as such on the submission web page, and should contain the words "Functional Pearl" somewhere in its title or subtitle. These steps will alert reviewers to use the appropriate evaluation criteria. Pearls will be combined with ordinary papers, however, for the purpose of computing the conference's acceptance rate. #### Experience Reports The purpose of an Experience Report is to help create a body of published, refereed, citable evidence that functional programming really works — or to describe what obstacles prevent it from working. Possible topics for an Experience Report include, but are not limited to: * insights gained from real-world projects using functional programming * comparison of functional programming with conventional programming in the context of an industrial project or a university curriculum * project-management, business, or legal issues encountered when using functional programming in a real-world project * curricular issues encountered when using functional programming in education * real-world constraints that created special challenges for an implementation of a functional language or for functional programming in general An Experience Report is distinguished from a normal PACMPL issue ICFP paper by its title, by its length, and by the criteria used to evaluate it. * Both in the papers and in any citations, the title of each accepted Experience Report must begin with the words "Experience Report" followed by a colon. The acceptance rate for Experience Reports will be computed and reported separately from the rate for ordinary papers. * Experience Report submissions can be at most 12 pages long, excluding bibliography. * Each accepted Experience Report will be presented at the conference, but depending on the number of Experience Reports and regular papers accepted, authors of Experience reports may be asked to give shorter talks. * Because the purpose of Experience Reports is to enable our community to accumulate a body of evidence about the efficacy of functional programming, an acceptable Experience Report need not add to the body of knowledge of the functional-programming community by presenting novel results or conclusions. It is sufficient if the Report states a clear thesis and provides supporting evidence. The thesis must be relevant to ICFP, but it need not be novel. The review committee will accept or reject Experience Reports based on whether they judge the evidence to be convincing. Anecdotal evidence will be acceptable provided it is well argued and the author explains what efforts were made to gather as much evidence as possible. Typically, more convincing evidence is obtained from papers which show how functional programming was used than from papers which only say that functional programming was used. The most convincing evidence often includes comparisons of situations before and after the introduction or discontinuation of functional programming. Evidence drawn from a single person's experience may be sufficient, but more weight will be given to evidence drawn from the experience of groups of people. An Experience Report should be short and to the point: it should make a claim about how well functional programming worked on a particular project and why, and produce evidence to substantiate this claim. If functional programming worked in this case in the same ways it has worked for others, the paper need only summarize the results — the main part of the paper should discuss how well it worked and in what context. Most readers will not want to know all the details of the project and its implementation, but the paper should characterize the project and its context well enough so that readers can judge to what degree this experience is relevant to their own projects. The paper should take care to highlight any unusual aspects of the project. Specifics about the project are more valuable than generalities about functional programming; for example, it is more valuable to say that the team delivered its software a month ahead of schedule than it is to say that functional programming made the team more productive. If the paper not only describes experience but also presents new technical results, or if the experience refutes cherished beliefs of the functional-programming community, it may be better off submitted it as a full paper, which will be judged by the usual criteria of novelty, originality, and relevance. The principal editor will be happy to advise on any concerns about which category to submit to. ### ICFP Organizers General Chair: Robby Findler (Northwestern University, USA) Artifact Evaluation Co-Chairs: Simon Marlow (Facebook, UK) Ryan R. Newton (Indiana University, USA) Industrial Relations Chair: Alan Jeffrey (Mozilla Research, USA) Programming Contest Organiser: Matthew Fluet (Rochester Institute of Technology, USA) Publicity and Web Chair: Lindsey Kuper (Intel Labs, USA) Student Research Competition Chair: Ilya Sergey (University College London, UK) Video Co-Chairs: Jose Calderon (Galois, Inc., USA) Nicolas Wu (University of Bristol, UK) Workshops Co-Chair: David Christiansen (Indiana University, USA) Christophe Scholliers (Universiteit Gent, Belgium) ### PACMPL Volume 2, Issue ICFP 2018 Principal Editor: Matthew Flatt (Univesity of Utah, USA) Review Committee: Sandrine Blazy (IRISA, University of Rennes 1, France) David Christiansen (Indiana University, USA) Martin Elsman (University of Copenhagen, Denmark) Marco Gaboardi (University at Buffalo, CUNY, USA) Sam Lindley (University of Edinburgh, UK) Heather Miller (Northweastern University, USA / EPFL, Switzerland) J. Garrett Morris (University of Kansas, USA) Henrik Nilsson (University of Nottingham, UK) Fran?ois Pottier (Inria, France) Alejandro Russo (Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden) Ilya Sergey (University College London, UK) Michael Sperber (Active Group GmbH, Germany) Wouter Swierstra (Utrecht University, UK) ?ric Tanter (University of Chile, Chile) Katsuhiro Ueno (Tohoku University, Japan) Niki Vazou (University of Maryland, USA) Jeremy Yallop (University of Cambridge, UK) External Review Committee: Michael D. Adams (University of Utah, USA) Amal Ahmed (Northeastern University, USA) Nada Amin (University of Cambridge, USA) Zena Ariola (University of Oregon) Lars Bergstrom (Mozilla Research) Lars Birkedal (Aarhus University, Denmark) Edwin Brady ( University of St. Andrews, UK) William Byrd (University of Alabama at Birmingham, USA) Giuseppe Castagna (CRNS / University of Paris Diderot, France) Sheng Chen (University of Louisiana at Lafayette, USA) Koen Claessen (Chalmers University ot Technology, Sweden) Ugo Dal Lago (University of Bologna, Italy / Inria, France) David Darais (University of Vermont, USA) Joshua Dunfield (Queen?s University, Canada) Richard Eisenberg (Bryn Mawr College, USA) Matthew Fluet (Rochester Institute of Technology, USA) Nate Foster (Cornell University, USA) Jurriaan Hage (Utrecht University, Netherlands) David Van Horn (University of Maryland, USA) Zhenjiang Hu (National Institute of Informatics, Japan) Suresh Jagannathan (Purdue University, USA) Simon Peyton Jones (Microsoft Research, UK) Naoki Kobayashi (University of Tokyo, Japan) Neelakantan Krishnaswami (University of Cambridge, UK) Kazutaka Matsuda (Tohoku University, Japan) Trevor McDonell (University of New South Wales, Australia) Hernan Melgratti (University of Buenos Aires, Argentina) Akimasa Morihata (University of Tokyo, Japan) Aleksandar Nanevski (IMDEA Software Institute, Spain) Kim Nguy?n (University of Paris-Sud, France) Cosmin Oancea (DIKU, University of Copenhagen, Denmark) Bruno C. d. S. Oliveira (University of Hong Kong, China) Tomas Petricek (University of Cambridge, UK) Benjamin Pierce (University of Pennsylvania, USA) Christine Rizkallah (University of Pennsylvania, USA) Tom Schrijvers (KU Leuven, Belgium) Manuel Serrano (Inria, France) Jeremy Siek (Indiana University, USA) Josef Svenningsson (Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden) Nicolas Tabareau (Inria, France) Dimitrios Vytiniotis (Microsoft Research, UK) Philip Wadler (University of Edinburgh, UK) Meng Wang (University of Kent, UK) From gerhard@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 09:36:47 2018 From: gerhard@REDACTED (Gerhard Lazu) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 08:36:47 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] How to define a command that will run in a remote shell Message-ID: When connecting to a remote node via remsh, is it possible to specify a command that will run on the remote node as soon as the shell is active? Both -run and -eval erl flags are executed in the context of the current node, I am looking for something like -remrun or -remeval, that would execute in the context of the remote shell. The end-goal is to have a single CLI command, e.g. observe, which enables a user to select any Erlang node that is part of a cluster, and observer_cli:start() [1]. will be invoked on remote shell invocation. Thank you, Gerhard. [1] https://github.com/zhongwencool/observer_cli -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fxn@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 10:17:34 2018 From: fxn@REDACTED (Xavier Noria) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 10:17:34 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Starting an Erlang node in embedded mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is that application part of a release, whose scripts are starting up the node in embedded mode? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fxn@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 12:37:58 2018 From: fxn@REDACTED (Xavier Noria) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 12:37:58 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Starting an Erlang node in embedded mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So the question is how to give a node a name when launched with a release script? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dm.klionsky@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 12:49:53 2018 From: dm.klionsky@REDACTED (Dmitry Klionsky) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 14:49:53 +0300 Subject: [erlang-questions] How to define a command that will run in a remote shell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Entop implemented a separate script for it. https://github.com/mazenharake/entop/blob/master/entop On 02/05/2018 11:36 AM, Gerhard Lazu wrote: > When connecting to a remote node via remsh, is it possible to specify > a command that will run on the remote node as soon as the shell is active? > > Both -run and -eval erl flags are executed in the context of the > current node, I am looking for something like -remrun or -remeval, > that would execute in the context of the remote shell. > > The end-goal is to have a single CLI command, e.g. observe, which > enables a user to select any Erlang node that is part of a cluster, > and observer_cli:start() [1]. will be invoked on remote shell invocation. > > Thank you, Gerhard. > > [1] _https://github.com/zhongwencool/observer_cli_ > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -- BR, Dmitry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrewp.haine@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 10:48:32 2018 From: andrewp.haine@REDACTED (Andrew Haine) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 11:48:32 +0200 Subject: [erlang-questions] Starting an Erlang node in embedded mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Xavier I have done the following: Creating a Release Package => systools:make_script("myapp_rel-1"). => systools:make_tar("myapp_rel-1"). Creating a Target System - Start Erlang/OTP from the directory where the mysystem.rel file resides: (which is in the "releases" folder) => erl -pa /home/user/myapplication/myapp -1.0/ebin - Create the target system: => target_system:create("myapp_rel-1"). Installing a Target System => target_system:install("myapp_rel-1", "/usr/local/myapplication/myapp"). Start Target System from OS: =>/usr/local/myapplication/myapp/bin/start It starts successfully and works as expected except for the fact that it doesn't start on an actual named node, e.g myapp1@REDACTED, it always starts on nonode@REDACTED The intention for this app is to be started by the OS at boot time, perhaps via /etc/init.d, and it needs to be on its own node. On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Xavier Noria wrote: > Is that application part of a release, whose scripts are starting up the > node in embedded mode? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrewp.haine@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 13:35:18 2018 From: andrewp.haine@REDACTED (Andrew Haine) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 14:35:18 +0200 Subject: [erlang-questions] Starting an Erlang node in embedded mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correct. On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Xavier Noria wrote: > So the question is how to give a node a name when launched with a release > script? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fxn@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 13:59:44 2018 From: fxn@REDACTED (Xavier Noria) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 13:59:44 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Starting an Erlang node in embedded mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the release was generated with rebar3, there is a standard file called vm.args where you can set the node name and other VM stuff. That is a release generated by hand with target_system. I generated a sample one and, as you, I don't see anything equivalent to vm.args. In the generated scripts it seems that the last call ends up passing "$@", have you tried passing -name to start? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kuna.prime@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 18:11:58 2018 From: kuna.prime@REDACTED (Karlo Kuna) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:11:58 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] ets reference form name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: this is great news looking forward to OTP 21 On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Kenneth Lundin wrote: > The current plan is to introduce an ets:whereis/1 function returning the > table reference in OTP 21. > Using the reference to access the table will be more efficient than using > the name. > > OTP 21 is planned for release mid June but with release candidate in May. > > /Regards Kenneth, Erlang/OTP Ericsson > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Karlo Kuna wrote: > >> is there any time frame for this feature? >> >> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Kenneth Lundin >> wrote: >> >>> It is currently not possible to get the Table Id (tid()) from a named >>> ets table. >>> We have recently discussed to add a function ets:whereis/1 or >>> ets:name2id/1 for this purpose so we have it in our backlog. >>> >>> /Kenneth Erlang/OTP team at Ericsson >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Karlo Kuna >>> wrote: >>> >>>> how to get table reference form table name of named table of ets table? >>>> >>>> thak you >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From warp.engineer@REDACTED Mon Feb 5 17:12:15 2018 From: warp.engineer@REDACTED (A. G. Madi) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 16:12:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [erlang-questions] Security ForTLS Distribution In-Reply-To: <5bead7f4-1cfa-4968-b884-a8f94789a12c@Spark> References: <5bead7f4-1cfa-4968-b884-a8f94789a12c@Spark> Message-ID: <227242115.3814828.1517847135526@mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I haven't found a way to use epmd over TLS yet, but I was just reading an article that might be helpful to you.? It describes a way to not have to use epmd at all.? Check it out; maybe you can use it.?https://www.erlang-solutions.com/blog/erlang-and-elixir-distribution-without-epmd.html On Friday, February 2, 2018 3:59 PM, asdf asdf wrote: Hello, I am working on the final deployment push. Since we are hosting some servers at AWS and some in another location, and we would like to cluster our nodes and use rpc?s, we added distribution over TLS. From my understanding, this changes the standard Erlang rpc?s to use use TLS connections rather than standard TCP. >From this article on erlang-solutions.com:?https://www.erlang-solutions.com/blog/erlang-distribution-over-tls.html?it is noted that a next concern is epmd, and how it is a security concern as it?s connection is over TCP.? How should we address this? Is there a fix? And are there any other security concerns that need addressing before connecting nodes across multiple data centers? Thanks for your advice!_______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tianxiang.xiong@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 06:55:03 2018 From: tianxiang.xiong@REDACTED (Tianxiang Xiong) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 21:55:03 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Setting socket options on listen / accept Message-ID: In Joe's Programming Erlang 2nd E , Chpt. 17, pg. 274, he says: After we have accepted a connection, it?s a good idea to explicitly set the > required socket options, like this: {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), inet:setopts(Socket, [{packet,4},binary,{nodelay,true},{active, true}]), loop(Socket) Until then the book's been doing: {ok, Listen} = gen_tcp:listen(2345, [binary, {packet, 4}, {reuseaddr, true}, {active, true}]) {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), ... loop(Socket) Is there a reason we need to set the options after accept? Is it necessary to set options on listen *and* accept? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karolis.velicka@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 09:14:20 2018 From: karolis.velicka@REDACTED (Karl Velicka) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:14:20 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Setting socket options on listen / accept In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, You don't have to set the options separately for accept, there's a two argument version that takes a proplist of socket options. When you're using gen_tcp:listen then you're setting up a server that receives connections, whereas `accept` is connecting to something that's listening to connections. You need to set the socket options separately in each case. Hope that helps! On 6 Feb 2018 07:55, "Tianxiang Xiong" wrote: In Joe's Programming Erlang 2nd E , Chpt. 17, pg. 274, he says: After we have accepted a connection, it?s a good idea to explicitly set the > required socket options, like this: {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), inet:setopts(Socket, [{packet,4},binary,{nodelay,true},{active, true}]), loop(Socket) Until then the book's been doing: {ok, Listen} = gen_tcp:listen(2345, [binary, {packet, 4}, {reuseaddr, true}, {active, true}]) {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), ... loop(Socket) Is there a reason we need to set the options after accept? Is it necessary to set options on listen *and* accept? _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karolis.velicka@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 09:26:38 2018 From: karolis.velicka@REDACTED (Karl Velicka) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:26:38 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Setting socket options on listen / accept In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The case where you are in control of both the server and the client is not so common outside of book examples, so you'd be only configuring your end of the connection. And even when you control both, there can be many reasons for configuring your sockets differently. On 6 Feb 2018 08:20, "Tianxiang Xiong" wrote: OK, so the same options need to be set for listen / accept? That seems kind of redundant--is there a reason for that? Or are these usually different options? On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Karl Velicka wrote: > Hi, > > You don't have to set the options separately for accept, there's a two > argument version that takes a proplist of socket options. > > When you're using gen_tcp:listen then you're setting up a server that > receives connections, whereas `accept` is connecting to something that's > listening to connections. You need to set the socket options separately in > each case. > > Hope that helps! > > On 6 Feb 2018 07:55, "Tianxiang Xiong" wrote: > > In Joe's Programming Erlang 2nd E > , Chpt. 17, pg. > 274, he says: > > After we have accepted a connection, it?s a good idea to explicitly set >> the required socket options, like this: > > > {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), > inet:setopts(Socket, [{packet,4},binary,{nodelay,true},{active, true}]), > loop(Socket) > > Until then the book's been doing: > > {ok, Listen} = gen_tcp:listen(2345, [binary, {packet, 4}, {reuseaddr, > true}, {active, true}]) > {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), > ... > loop(Socket) > > Is there a reason we need to set the options after accept? Is it necessary > to set options on listen *and* accept? > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karolis.velicka@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 09:37:20 2018 From: karolis.velicka@REDACTED (Karl Velicka) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:37:20 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Setting socket options on listen / accept In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, my apologies! I was thinking about listen and connect - serves me right for replying before having a coffee :) In that case I don't really have a good answer for your question. On 6 Feb 2018 08:29, "Tianxiang Xiong" wrote: But listen and accept are both on the server side. Does that have anything to do w/ the client? I'll have to read up more on the TCP protocol before investigating this further, I guess. On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 12:26 AM, Karl Velicka wrote: > The case where you are in control of both the server and the client is not > so common outside of book examples, so you'd be only configuring your end > of the connection. And even when you control both, there can be many > reasons for configuring your sockets differently. > > > On 6 Feb 2018 08:20, "Tianxiang Xiong" wrote: > > OK, so the same options need to be set for listen / accept? That seems > kind of redundant--is there a reason for that? Or are these usually > different options? > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Karl Velicka > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> You don't have to set the options separately for accept, there's a two >> argument version that takes a proplist of socket options. >> >> When you're using gen_tcp:listen then you're setting up a server that >> receives connections, whereas `accept` is connecting to something that's >> listening to connections. You need to set the socket options separately in >> each case. >> >> Hope that helps! >> >> On 6 Feb 2018 07:55, "Tianxiang Xiong" wrote: >> >> In Joe's Programming Erlang 2nd E >> , Chpt. 17, pg. >> 274, he says: >> >> After we have accepted a connection, it?s a good idea to explicitly set >>> the required socket options, like this: >> >> >> {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), >> inet:setopts(Socket, [{packet,4},binary,{nodelay,true},{active, true}]), >> loop(Socket) >> >> Until then the book's been doing: >> >> {ok, Listen} = gen_tcp:listen(2345, [binary, {packet, 4}, {reuseaddr, >> true}, {active, true}]) >> {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), >> ... >> loop(Socket) >> >> Is there a reason we need to set the options after accept? Is it >> necessary to set options on listen *and* accept? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roger@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 12:51:44 2018 From: roger@REDACTED (Roger Lipscombe) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 11:51:44 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Setting socket options on listen / accept In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's worth pointing out that certain 'raw' options only apply to the listening socket, and are not consistently inherited by (or transferred to) the accepting/connected socket. For example, on Linux, TCP keep-alive settings can be applied to the listening socket, and they'll be copied to the connected socket. On macOS, this (a) doesn't work, and (b) does other weird, unexpected things. Note also that you probably *don't* want to set {active, true} in listen/2 in a real application, because you're probably going to hand the socket off to another process (using gen_tcp:controlling_process/2), and this'll cause you to miss the occasional message during that window. And, frankly, if you're building your own socket acceptor pool, *don't*. Just use ranch (https://github.com/ninenines/ranch). On 6 February 2018 at 05:55, Tianxiang Xiong wrote: > In Joe's Programming Erlang 2nd E, Chpt. 17, pg. 274, he says: > >> After we have accepted a connection, it?s a good idea to explicitly set >> the required socket options, like this: > > > {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), > inet:setopts(Socket, [{packet,4},binary,{nodelay,true},{active, true}]), > loop(Socket) > > Until then the book's been doing: > > {ok, Listen} = gen_tcp:listen(2345, [binary, {packet, 4}, {reuseaddr, true}, > {active, true}]) > {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), > ... > loop(Socket) > > Is there a reason we need to set the options after accept? Is it necessary > to set options on listen and accept? > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > From tianxiang.xiong@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 09:20:54 2018 From: tianxiang.xiong@REDACTED (Tianxiang Xiong) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 00:20:54 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Setting socket options on listen / accept In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, so the same options need to be set for listen / accept? That seems kind of redundant--is there a reason for that? Or are these usually different options? On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Karl Velicka wrote: > Hi, > > You don't have to set the options separately for accept, there's a two > argument version that takes a proplist of socket options. > > When you're using gen_tcp:listen then you're setting up a server that > receives connections, whereas `accept` is connecting to something that's > listening to connections. You need to set the socket options separately in > each case. > > Hope that helps! > > On 6 Feb 2018 07:55, "Tianxiang Xiong" wrote: > > In Joe's Programming Erlang 2nd E > , Chpt. 17, pg. > 274, he says: > > After we have accepted a connection, it?s a good idea to explicitly set >> the required socket options, like this: > > > {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), > inet:setopts(Socket, [{packet,4},binary,{nodelay,true},{active, true}]), > loop(Socket) > > Until then the book's been doing: > > {ok, Listen} = gen_tcp:listen(2345, [binary, {packet, 4}, {reuseaddr, > true}, {active, true}]) > {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), > ... > loop(Socket) > > Is there a reason we need to set the options after accept? Is it necessary > to set options on listen *and* accept? > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tianxiang.xiong@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 09:29:51 2018 From: tianxiang.xiong@REDACTED (Tianxiang Xiong) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 00:29:51 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Setting socket options on listen / accept In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But listen and accept are both on the server side. Does that have anything to do w/ the client? I'll have to read up more on the TCP protocol before investigating this further, I guess. On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 12:26 AM, Karl Velicka wrote: > The case where you are in control of both the server and the client is not > so common outside of book examples, so you'd be only configuring your end > of the connection. And even when you control both, there can be many > reasons for configuring your sockets differently. > > > On 6 Feb 2018 08:20, "Tianxiang Xiong" wrote: > > OK, so the same options need to be set for listen / accept? That seems > kind of redundant--is there a reason for that? Or are these usually > different options? > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Karl Velicka > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> You don't have to set the options separately for accept, there's a two >> argument version that takes a proplist of socket options. >> >> When you're using gen_tcp:listen then you're setting up a server that >> receives connections, whereas `accept` is connecting to something that's >> listening to connections. You need to set the socket options separately in >> each case. >> >> Hope that helps! >> >> On 6 Feb 2018 07:55, "Tianxiang Xiong" wrote: >> >> In Joe's Programming Erlang 2nd E >> , Chpt. 17, pg. >> 274, he says: >> >> After we have accepted a connection, it?s a good idea to explicitly set >>> the required socket options, like this: >> >> >> {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), >> inet:setopts(Socket, [{packet,4},binary,{nodelay,true},{active, true}]), >> loop(Socket) >> >> Until then the book's been doing: >> >> {ok, Listen} = gen_tcp:listen(2345, [binary, {packet, 4}, {reuseaddr, >> true}, {active, true}]) >> {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), >> ... >> loop(Socket) >> >> Is there a reason we need to set the options after accept? Is it >> necessary to set options on listen *and* accept? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gkasten@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 17:13:30 2018 From: gkasten@REDACTED (Glenn Kasten) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:13:30 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] atom (symbol) interning across distributed instances of runtime Message-ID: I'm curious about the implementation of message-passing of atoms (symbols) among unrelated runtime instances, in particular how the atoms are interned. I would assume that among a single runtime instance, atoms are passed as small integers rather than strings, yet that would not work between unrelated runtime instances unless the atoms are interned to a consistent value per atoms. For example, at first connection between runtimes, do the runtimes undergo an atom negotiation protocol so they can agree on the interned values? Or something else? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_(programming) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_interning Thanks, Glenn -- Glenn Kasten Android Media x35392 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roger@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 18:05:39 2018 From: roger@REDACTED (Roger Lipscombe) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:05:39 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] atom (symbol) interning across distributed instances of runtime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Assuming you're talking about passing atoms between different Erlang nodes using Erlang distribution, you're looking for the "External Term Format" documentation: http://erlang.org/doc/apps/erts/erl_ext_dist.html Atoms are passed as length-prefixed strings. Except where they're cached. I don't know anything about how that works. On 6 February 2018 at 16:13, Glenn Kasten wrote: > I'm curious about the implementation of message-passing of atoms (symbols) > among unrelated runtime instances, in particular how the atoms are interned. > I would assume that among a single runtime instance, atoms are passed > as small integers rather than strings, yet that would not work between > unrelated runtime instances > unless the atoms are interned to a consistent value per atoms. > For example, at first connection between runtimes, do the runtimes undergo > an atom negotiation protocol so they can agree on the interned values? > Or something else? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_(programming) > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_interning > > Thanks, > Glenn > > > > > > > -- > Glenn Kasten > Android Media > x35392 > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > From lukas@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 18:06:30 2018 From: lukas@REDACTED (Lukas Larsson) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 18:06:30 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] atom (symbol) interning across distributed instances of runtime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is an atom caching algorithm that is used. It is described here: http://erlang.org/doc/apps/erts/erl_ext_dist.html#distribution_header tldr; atoms are integers inside the same VM. atoms are strings when sending in-between nodes, but there is a cache that uses the integers of the remote node to send atoms. Lukas On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Glenn Kasten wrote: > I'm curious about the implementation of message-passing of atoms (symbols) > among unrelated runtime instances, in particular how the atoms are > interned. > I would assume that among a single runtime instance, atoms are passed > as small integers rather than strings, yet that would not work between > unrelated runtime instances > unless the atoms are interned to a consistent value per atoms. > For example, at first connection between runtimes, do the runtimes undergo > an atom negotiation protocol so they can agree on the interned values? > Or something else? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_(programming) > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_interning > > Thanks, > Glenn > > > > > > > -- > Glenn Kasten > Android Media > x35392 > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gkasten@REDACTED Tue Feb 6 18:09:22 2018 From: gkasten@REDACTED (Glenn Kasten) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:09:22 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] atom (symbol) interning across distributed instances of runtime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Roger and Lukas, that was exactly what I needed. On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Lukas Larsson wrote: > There is an atom caching algorithm that is used. It is described here: > http://erlang.org/doc/apps/erts/erl_ext_dist.html#distribution_header > > tldr; atoms are integers inside the same VM. atoms are strings when > sending in-between nodes, but there is a cache that uses the integers of > the remote node to send atoms. > > Lukas > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Glenn Kasten wrote: > >> I'm curious about the implementation of message-passing of atoms >> (symbols) >> among unrelated runtime instances, in particular how the atoms are >> interned. >> I would assume that among a single runtime instance, atoms are passed >> as small integers rather than strings, yet that would not work between >> unrelated runtime instances >> unless the atoms are interned to a consistent value per atoms. >> For example, at first connection between runtimes, do the runtimes undergo >> an atom negotiation protocol so they can agree on the interned values? >> Or something else? >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_(programming) >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_interning >> >> Thanks, >> Glenn >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Glenn Kasten >> Android Media >> x35392 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > -- Glenn Kasten Android Media x35392 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark.geib.44@REDACTED Wed Feb 7 00:33:49 2018 From: mark.geib.44@REDACTED (Mark Geib) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 16:33:49 -0700 Subject: [erlang-questions] R20 escript does not accept "-smp disable" Message-ID: <17D784A9-2B96-4E41-A405-77AE465B5D74@gmail.com> Did the escript command line args change in R20.? I could not find any reference with a quick search. I recently upgraded Erlang on my mac, via homebrew to R20. The first time I went to test an application using cuttlefish I received this error. Argument '-smp disable' not supported. Use "+S 1" instead. Usage: erl [-version] [-sname NAME | -name NAME] [-noshell] [-noinput] [-env VAR VALUE] [-compile file ...] [-smp [auto|enable]] [-make] [-man [manopts] MANPAGE] [-x] [-emu_args] [-start_epmd BOOLEAN] [-args_file FILENAME] [+A THREADS] [+a SIZE] [+B[c|d|i]] [+c [BOOLEAN]] [+C MODE] [+h HEAP_SIZE_OPTION] [+K BOOLEAN] [+l] [+M ] [+P MAX_PROCS] [+Q MAX_PORTS] [+R COMPAT_REL] [+r] [+rg READER_GROUPS_LIMIT] [+s SCHEDULER_OPTION] [+S NO_SCHEDULERS:NO_SCHEDULERS_ONLINE] [+SP PERCENTAGE_SCHEDULERS:PERCENTAGE_SCHEDULERS_ONLINE] [+T LEVEL] [+V] [+v] [+W] [+z MISC_OPTION] [args ?] I wrote a trivial escript of my own and sure enough, with R19 it works fine, with R20 the above error. Here is the escript I am using for testing. #!/usr/local/Cellar/erlang@REDACTED/19.3.6.4//bin/escript %%! -smp disable -sname demo -setcookie cookie -define(ME, filename:basename(escript:script_name())). -include_lib("kernel/include/file.hrl"). main(Args) -> io:format("Args:~s~n~n", [Args]), halt(0). Cuttlefish uses {escript_emu_args, "%%! -escript main cuttlefish_escript -smp disable +A 0\n?}. in it?s the rebar.config. Thanks, Mark. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 528 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From dmytro.lytovchenko@REDACTED Wed Feb 7 02:40:53 2018 From: dmytro.lytovchenko@REDACTED (Dmytro Lytovchenko) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 02:40:53 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] R20 escript does not accept "-smp disable" In-Reply-To: <17D784A9-2B96-4E41-A405-77AE465B5D74@gmail.com> References: <17D784A9-2B96-4E41-A405-77AE465B5D74@gmail.com> Message-ID: Non-SMP runtime has been disabled in OTP 20 and will be removed in OTP 21 (summer 2018). Observe here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/erlang-programming/e8BgIzWxoLo 2018-02-07 0:33 GMT+01:00 Mark Geib : > Did the escript command line args change in R20.? I could not find any > reference with a quick search. > > I recently upgraded Erlang on my mac, via homebrew to R20. The first time > I went to test an application using cuttlefish I received this error. > > Argument '-smp disable' not supported. Use "+S 1" instead. > Usage: erl [-version] [-sname NAME | -name NAME] [-noshell] [-noinput] > [-env VAR VALUE] [-compile file ...] [-smp [auto|enable]] [-make] [-man > [manopts] MANPAGE] [-x] [-emu_args] [-start_epmd BOOLEAN] [-args_file > FILENAME] [+A THREADS] [+a SIZE] [+B[c|d|i]] [+c [BOOLEAN]] [+C MODE] [+h > HEAP_SIZE_OPTION] [+K BOOLEAN] [+l] [+M ] [+P > MAX_PROCS] [+Q MAX_PORTS] [+R COMPAT_REL] [+r] [+rg READER_GROUPS_LIMIT] > [+s SCHEDULER_OPTION] [+S NO_SCHEDULERS:NO_SCHEDULERS_ONLINE] [+SP > PERCENTAGE_SCHEDULERS:PERCENTAGE_SCHEDULERS_ONLINE] [+T LEVEL] [+V] [+v] > [+W] [+z MISC_OPTION] [args ?] > > I wrote a trivial escript of my own and sure enough, with R19 it works > fine, with R20 the above error. > > Here is the escript I am using for testing. > > #!/usr/local/Cellar/erlang@REDACTED/19.3.6.4//bin/escript > > %%! -smp disable -sname demo -setcookie cookie > > -define(ME, filename:basename(escript:script_name())). > -include_lib("kernel/include/file.hrl"). > > main(Args) -> > io:format("Args:~s~n~n", > [Args]), > halt(0). > > Cuttlefish uses {escript_emu_args, "%%! -escript main cuttlefish_escript > -smp disable +A 0\n?}. in it?s the rebar.config. > > Thanks, > Mark. > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keam7095@REDACTED Wed Feb 7 16:30:44 2018 From: keam7095@REDACTED (Hakim Fajardo) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 15:30:44 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] How to turn off Progress Reports in erl 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I recently updated my Erlang (and Elixir) install to version erlang/otp 20. I?m running macOS Sierra 10.12.6 When I access $erl in terminal it prints out a long list of progress reports. Currently I use: $erl -sasl errlog_type error to turn off progress reports but is there a way to turn it off completely or send it to a file if I need to? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hawk.mattsson@REDACTED Wed Feb 7 17:13:35 2018 From: hawk.mattsson@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?H=C3=A5kan_Mattsson?=) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 17:13:35 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] R20 escript does not accept "-smp disable" In-Reply-To: References: <17D784A9-2B96-4E41-A405-77AE465B5D74@gmail.com> Message-ID: Maybe it has something to do with this... Here are some of the most important news in OTP 20: > Potential Incompatibilities > > - > > ERTS: > - The non SMP Erlang VM is deprecated and not built by default > > /H?kan On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 2:40 AM, Dmytro Lytovchenko < dmytro.lytovchenko@REDACTED> wrote: > Non-SMP runtime has been disabled in OTP 20 and will be removed in OTP 21 > (summer 2018). > Observe here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/erlang- > programming/e8BgIzWxoLo > > 2018-02-07 0:33 GMT+01:00 Mark Geib : > >> Did the escript command line args change in R20.? I could not find any >> reference with a quick search. >> >> I recently upgraded Erlang on my mac, via homebrew to R20. The first time >> I went to test an application using cuttlefish I received this error. >> >> Argument '-smp disable' not supported. Use "+S 1" instead. >> Usage: erl [-version] [-sname NAME | -name NAME] [-noshell] [-noinput] >> [-env VAR VALUE] [-compile file ...] [-smp [auto|enable]] [-make] [-man >> [manopts] MANPAGE] [-x] [-emu_args] [-start_epmd BOOLEAN] [-args_file >> FILENAME] [+A THREADS] [+a SIZE] [+B[c|d|i]] [+c [BOOLEAN]] [+C MODE] [+h >> HEAP_SIZE_OPTION] [+K BOOLEAN] [+l] [+M ] [+P >> MAX_PROCS] [+Q MAX_PORTS] [+R COMPAT_REL] [+r] [+rg READER_GROUPS_LIMIT] >> [+s SCHEDULER_OPTION] [+S NO_SCHEDULERS:NO_SCHEDULERS_ONLINE] [+SP >> PERCENTAGE_SCHEDULERS:PERCENTAGE_SCHEDULERS_ONLINE] [+T LEVEL] [+V] [+v] >> [+W] [+z MISC_OPTION] [args ?] >> >> I wrote a trivial escript of my own and sure enough, with R19 it works >> fine, with R20 the above error. >> >> Here is the escript I am using for testing. >> >> #!/usr/local/Cellar/erlang@REDACTED/19.3.6.4//bin/escript >> >> %%! -smp disable -sname demo -setcookie cookie >> >> -define(ME, filename:basename(escript:script_name())). >> -include_lib("kernel/include/file.hrl"). >> >> main(Args) -> >> io:format("Args:~s~n~n", >> [Args]), >> halt(0). >> >> Cuttlefish uses {escript_emu_args, "%%! -escript main cuttlefish_escript >> -smp disable +A 0\n?}. in it?s the rebar.config. >> >> Thanks, >> Mark. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark.geib.44@REDACTED Wed Feb 7 17:55:55 2018 From: mark.geib.44@REDACTED (Mark Geib) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:55:55 -0700 Subject: [erlang-questions] R20 escript does not accept "-smp disable" In-Reply-To: References: <17D784A9-2B96-4E41-A405-77AE465B5D74@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for info. I will go back to R19 until cuttlefish is updated. Mark. > On Feb 6, 2018, at 6:40 PM, Dmytro Lytovchenko wrote: > > Non-SMP runtime has been disabled in OTP 20 and will be removed in OTP 21 (summer 2018). > Observe here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/erlang-programming/e8BgIzWxoLo > > 2018-02-07 0:33 GMT+01:00 Mark Geib >: > Did the escript command line args change in R20.? I could not find any reference with a quick search. > > I recently upgraded Erlang on my mac, via homebrew to R20. The first time I went to test an application using cuttlefish I received this error. > > Argument '-smp disable' not supported. Use "+S 1" instead. > Usage: erl [-version] [-sname NAME | -name NAME] [-noshell] [-noinput] [-env VAR VALUE] [-compile file ...] [-smp [auto|enable]] [-make] [-man [manopts] MANPAGE] [-x] [-emu_args] [-start_epmd BOOLEAN] [-args_file FILENAME] [+A THREADS] [+a SIZE] [+B[c|d|i]] [+c [BOOLEAN]] [+C MODE] [+h HEAP_SIZE_OPTION] [+K BOOLEAN] [+l] [+M ] [+P MAX_PROCS] [+Q MAX_PORTS] [+R COMPAT_REL] [+r] [+rg READER_GROUPS_LIMIT] [+s SCHEDULER_OPTION] [+S NO_SCHEDULERS:NO_SCHEDULERS_ONLINE] [+SP PERCENTAGE_SCHEDULERS:PERCENTAGE_SCHEDULERS_ONLINE] [+T LEVEL] [+V] [+v] [+W] [+z MISC_OPTION] [args ?] > > I wrote a trivial escript of my own and sure enough, with R19 it works fine, with R20 the above error. > > Here is the escript I am using for testing. > > #!/usr/local/Cellar/erlang@REDACTED/19.3.6.4//bin/escript > > %%! -smp disable -sname demo -setcookie cookie > > -define(ME, filename:basename(escript:script_name())). > -include_lib("kernel/include/file.hrl"). > > main(Args) -> > io:format("Args:~s~n~n", > [Args]), > halt(0). > > Cuttlefish uses {escript_emu_args, "%%! -escript main cuttlefish_escript -smp disable +A 0\n?}. in it?s the rebar.config. > > Thanks, > Mark. > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 528 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From charleshixsn@REDACTED Wed Feb 7 17:56:01 2018 From: charleshixsn@REDACTED (Charles Hixson) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:56:01 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Private ets table vs. Process directory Message-ID: When should a private ets table be preferred over the process directory? To give some context, I'm expecting to has nearly as many processes as I can run, and that each one will need internal mutable state.? Also, that the mutable state will be complex (partially because of the limited number of processes), so passing the state as function parameters would entail huge amounts of copying.? (Essentially I'd be modifying nodes deep within trees.) Mutable state would allow me to avoid the copying, and the state is not exported from the process.? I'm concerned that a huge number of private ets tables would use excessive memory, decreasing the number of processes I could use...but all the references keep saying not to use the process directory. I'm still designing things now, so this is the ideal time to decide.? An alternative is that I could use a single public ets table, with each process only accessing its own data, but I suspect that might involve a lot of locking overhead, even though in principle nothing should need to be locked. From zxq9@REDACTED Thu Feb 8 00:45:05 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 08:45:05 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Private ets table vs. Process directory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1820582.WWYNOb4imQ@takoyaki> On 2018?2?7???? 8?56?01? JST Charles Hixson wrote: > ...so passing the state as function parameters would > entail huge amounts of copying. (Essentially I'd be modifying nodes > deep within trees.) > > Mutable state would allow me to avoid the copying, and the state is not > exported from the process... You seem to be confused a bit about the nature of mutability. If I set a variable X and in my service loop alter X, the next time the service loop recurses (loops) X will be a different value -- it will have mutated, but within the context of a single call of the service loop function the thing labelled X at the time of the function call will be immutable. -module(simple). -export([start/1]). start(X) -> spawn(fun() -> loop(X) end). loop(X) -> ok = io:format("X is ~p~n", [X]), receive {add, Y} -> NewX = X + Y, loop(NewX); {sub, Y} -> NewX = X - Y, loop(NewX); stop -> ok = io:format("Bye!~n"), exit(normal); Unexpected -> ok = io:format("I don't understand ~tp~n", [Unexpected]), loop(X) end. 1> c(simple). {ok,simple} 2> P = simple:start(10). X is 10 <0.72.0> 3> P ! {add, 15}. X is 25 {add,15} 4> P ! {sub, 100}. X is -75 {sub,100} That is all there is to state maintenance, and this is how gen_servers work. This is also the form that has the least mysterious memory management model in the normal case, and the form that gives you all that nifty memory isolation and fault tolerance Erlang is famous for. Note that X is *not* copied every time we enter loop/1. If we send a message containing X to another process, though, *then* X is copied into the context of the process receiving that message. It doesn't matter at all what sort of a structure X is. Here it is a number, but it could be anything. Gigantic tuples chock full of maps and gb_trees and other process references and lists of things and queues and whatnot are the norm -- and none of this causes trouble in the normal case. As for mucking around in deep tree structures, altering nodes in trees does not necessarily entail making a copy of the whole tree. To you as a programmer there are two versions of the data which are effectively distinct, but that does not necessarily mean that they are two complete versions of the data in memory. The nature of copying (or whether copying happens at all under the hood) and how fast things can be garbage collected has to do with the nature of the task and what kind of data structures you are using. Because of immutability you *actually* get to share more data in the underlying implementation than otherwise. Fred provided a great explanation a while back here: http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2015-December/087040.html The general approach to performance issues -- whether memory, I/O bottlenecks, messaging bottlenecks, or raw thunk time -- is to start out writing your processes in the vanilla way using state variables in a loop and only stepping away from that when some extreme deficiency is demonstrated. If you are going to be spawning a ton of processes at once to do things then you've really got no way of knowing what is going to break first until you actually have some working code and can see it break for yourself. People get themselves into trouble with the process dictionary, ETS, NIFs, etc. all the time because the use cases often do not warrant the use of these techniques. So keep it simple. Write an example of what you want to do. Try it out. You might wind up just saturating your processor or memory bus way before you hit an actual space problem. If something breaks try to measure why -- but right now without telling anyone the kind of data you're dealing with or what kinds of operations you're doing or any example code that is known to break in a certain way at a certain scale we can't really give you much helpful advice. -Craig From tianxiang.xiong@REDACTED Thu Feb 8 05:40:05 2018 From: tianxiang.xiong@REDACTED (Tianxiang Xiong) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 20:40:05 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Setting socket options on listen / accept In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Roger, that makes sense. And no, I'm not trying to build my own socket acceptor pool; that's probably too ambitious. Just working through Joe's book for now ??. On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:51 AM, Roger Lipscombe wrote: > It's worth pointing out that certain 'raw' options only apply to the > listening socket, and are not consistently inherited by (or > transferred to) the accepting/connected socket. For example, on Linux, > TCP keep-alive settings can be applied to the listening socket, and > they'll be copied to the connected socket. On macOS, this (a) doesn't > work, and (b) does other weird, unexpected things. > > Note also that you probably *don't* want to set {active, true} in > listen/2 in a real application, because you're probably going to hand > the socket off to another process (using > gen_tcp:controlling_process/2), and this'll cause you to miss the > occasional message during that window. > > And, frankly, if you're building your own socket acceptor pool, > *don't*. Just use ranch (https://github.com/ninenines/ranch). > > On 6 February 2018 at 05:55, Tianxiang Xiong > wrote: > > In Joe's Programming Erlang 2nd E, Chpt. 17, pg. 274, he says: > > > >> After we have accepted a connection, it?s a good idea to explicitly set > >> the required socket options, like this: > > > > > > {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), > > inet:setopts(Socket, [{packet,4},binary,{nodelay,true},{active, true}]), > > loop(Socket) > > > > Until then the book's been doing: > > > > {ok, Listen} = gen_tcp:listen(2345, [binary, {packet, 4}, {reuseaddr, > true}, > > {active, true}]) > > {ok, Socket} = gen_tcp:accept(Listen), > > ... > > loop(Socket) > > > > Is there a reason we need to set the options after accept? Is it > necessary > > to set options on listen and accept? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From charleshixsn@REDACTED Thu Feb 8 07:28:32 2018 From: charleshixsn@REDACTED (Charles Hixson) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 22:28:32 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Private ets table vs. Process directory In-Reply-To: <1820582.WWYNOb4imQ@takoyaki> References: <1820582.WWYNOb4imQ@takoyaki> Message-ID: <17bca50e-a855-a676-9df0-0edb5822d2c3@earthlink.net> That works fine in the simple case, but I'm contemplating repeatedly adjusting weights deep within a nested data structure. Your approach would result in creating an altered copy of the entire structure for each recursion.? This is probably only about 1KB or so of information, so doing this a few times isn't a problem, but doing it millions of time quickly becomes a problem. This can be addressed by either ets or the process directory, and those allow the internal structure to be safely modified.? In the process directory it's safe because the information is never exported from the process (except for i/o, which must be special cased).? Similarly a private ets can handle it without problems. And so can a global ets, as then a unique process specific id (NOT pid, as this needs to survive restarts) can be used as a part of the key.? So those three methods would work.? The question in my mind is how to predict the tradeoffs as it scales up.? I suspect that the process directory would use the least memory, though possibly it would be the global ets table.? A private ets table seems the most natural approach, but it looks, to my naive eyes, as if it would scale poorly WRT memory use. What I'd really like is to use a Mnesia system which kept a cache of active entries, but didn't require everything to be rolled in from disk.? AFAIKT, however, my choices with a Mnesia table are to keep everything in memory or to keep everything rolled out to disk. I also haven't been able to determine whether processes that are waiting to receive a message can be rolled out to inactive memory.? There are some indications ("use enough processes, but not too many") that they can't.? This means that I need to adapt my memory use to the systems that are being run on rather carefully.? If background processes keep activating every live process to check it's status I could easily end up with severe thrashing.? And *THAT* will affect the design.? If I need to hand manage the caching, then I loose a lot of the benefits that I'm hoping to get from Erlang. The basic design calls for a huge number of "processes" to be doing n x m communication, and the simple design calls for each "process" to be able to send messages to each other process, though only a subset of the messages would be actually sent.? My first sketch of a design called for each "process" to be mapped to a separate Erlang process, but this doesn't work, because Erlang doesn't like to have that many processes.? Even this simple design, however, required to figure for allowing 1000 inputs and 1000 outputs to each "process", and probably well over 100,000 "processes".? Most of them would be idle most of the time, but all would need to be "activatable" when messaged, and all would need to become dormant when just waiting for a message.? The idea is not a neural net, but it has certain similarities. Now if I could actually have one process per "process", then your proposal, which I recognize as the normal Erlang approach, would make sense, but that isn't going to work.? This could be done in that case by having lots of variables, so that there wouldn't be the need to have any modifications of deeply nested items, so not much would need to be copied. As for KISS, that's a great approach, but it doesn't reveal scaling problems.? When one is adapting an approach one should always KISS, but when designing which approach to try it's important to pick one that will work when the system approaches its initial design goal. On 02/07/2018 03:45 PM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: > On 2018?2?7???? 8?56?01? JST Charles Hixson wrote: >> ...so passing the state as function parameters would >> entail huge amounts of copying.? (Essentially I'd be modifying nodes >> deep within trees.) >> >> Mutable state would allow me to avoid the copying, and the state is not >> exported from the process... > You seem to be confused a bit about the nature of mutability. If I set > a variable X and in my service loop alter X, the next time the service > loop recurses (loops) X will be a different value -- it will have > mutated, but within the context of a single call of the service loop > function the thing labelled X at the time of the function call will be > immutable. > > -module(simple). > -export([start/1]). > > start(X) -> > ?? spawn(fun() -> loop(X) end). > > loop(X) -> > ?? ok = io:format("X is ~p~n", [X]), > ?? receive > ???? {add, Y} -> > ?????? NewX = X + Y, > ?????? loop(NewX); > ???? {sub, Y} -> > ?????? NewX = X - Y, > ?????? loop(NewX); > ???? stop -> > ?????? ok = io:format("Bye!~n"), > ?????? exit(normal); > ???? Unexpected -> > ?????? ok = io:format("I don't understand ~tp~n", [Unexpected]), > ?????? loop(X) > ?? end. > > > 1> c(simple). > {ok,simple} > 2> P = simple:start(10). > X is 10 > <0.72.0> > 3> P ! {add, 15}. > X is 25 > {add,15} > 4> P ! {sub, 100}. > X is -75 > {sub,100} > > > That is all there is to state maintenance, and this is how gen_servers > work. This is also the form that has the least mysterious memory > management model in the normal case, and the form that gives you all > that nifty memory isolation and fault tolerance Erlang is famous for. > Note that X is *not* copied every time we enter loop/1. If we send a > message containing X to another process, though, *then* X is copied > into the context of the process receiving that message. > > It doesn't matter at all what sort of a structure X is. Here it is a > number, but it could be anything. Gigantic tuples chock full of maps > and gb_trees and other process references and lists of things and > queues and whatnot are the norm -- and none of this causes trouble in > the normal case. > > As for mucking around in deep tree structures, altering nodes in trees > does not necessarily entail making a copy of the whole tree. To you as > a programmer there are two versions of the data which are effectively > distinct, but that does not necessarily mean that they are two > complete versions of the data in memory. The nature of copying (or > whether copying happens at all under the hood) and how fast things can > be garbage collected has to do with the nature of the task and what > kind of data structures you are using. Because of immutability you > *actually* get to share more data in the underlying implementation > than otherwise. > > Fred provided a great explanation a while back here: > http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2015-December/087040.html > > The general approach to performance issues -- whether memory, I/O > bottlenecks, messaging bottlenecks, or raw thunk time -- is to start > out writing your processes in the vanilla way using state variables in > a loop and only stepping away from that when some extreme deficiency > is demonstrated. If you are going to be spawning a ton of processes at > once to do things then you've really got no way of knowing what is > going to break first until you actually have some working code and can > see it break for yourself. People get themselves into trouble with the > process dictionary, ETS, NIFs, etc. all the time because the use cases > often do not warrant the use of these techniques. > > So keep it simple. Write an example of what you want to do. Try it > out. You might wind up just saturating your processor or memory bus > way before you hit an actual space problem. If something breaks try to > measure why -- but right now without telling anyone the kind of data > you're dealing with or what kinds of operations you're doing or any > example code that is known to break in a certain way at a certain > scale we can't really give you much helpful advice. > > -Craig > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erlang@REDACTED Thu Feb 8 21:05:46 2018 From: erlang@REDACTED (Joe Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 21:05:46 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Private ets table vs. Process directory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In order to even think about your question I'd need certain data - words like "huge" as in "huge amounts of copying" and "limited numbers of processes" etc. do not convey much meaning. Huge means different things to different people - to some people Huge means Gbytes (I talked the other day to somebody who used the word Huge - and I said "how big" he said tens of PetaBytes) To me huge means a data structure that is larger than the RAM on my machine (which is 16GB) - so not only do you have to say what you meant by huge but also how your numbers relate to your machine(s). Also how long do you have to do what? - Handling huge amounts of data is easy if you have a big enough disks and enough time - you also need to say (roughly) how long you have to do what (are we talking seconds, milliseconds, hours, days???) The more numbers you add to questions like this the better answers you'll get :-) Cheers /Joe On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 5:56 PM, Charles Hixson wrote: > When should a private ets table be preferred over the process directory? > > To give some context, I'm expecting to has nearly as many processes as I can > run, and that each one will need internal mutable state. Also, that the > mutable state will be complex (partially because of the limited number of > processes), so passing the state as function parameters would entail huge > amounts of copying. (Essentially I'd be modifying nodes deep within trees.) > > Mutable state would allow me to avoid the copying, and the state is not > exported from the process. I'm concerned that a huge number of private ets > tables would use excessive memory, decreasing the number of processes I > could use...but all the references keep saying not to use the process > directory. > > I'm still designing things now, so this is the ideal time to decide. An > alternative is that I could use a single public ets table, with each process > only accessing its own data, but I suspect that might involve a lot of > locking overhead, even though in principle nothing should need to be locked. > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From erlang@REDACTED Thu Feb 8 21:32:00 2018 From: erlang@REDACTED (Joe Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 21:32:00 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Private ets table vs. Process directory In-Reply-To: <17bca50e-a855-a676-9df0-0edb5822d2c3@earthlink.net> References: <1820582.WWYNOb4imQ@takoyaki> <17bca50e-a855-a676-9df0-0edb5822d2c3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Charles Hixson wrote: > That works fine in the simple case, but I'm contemplating repeatedly > adjusting weights deep within a nested data structure. Your approach would > result in creating an altered copy of the entire structure for each > recursion. This is probably only about 1KB or so of information, so doing > this a few times isn't a problem, but doing it millions of time quickly > becomes a problem. 1 KB is tiny in my mind - If you have 1 GB of RAM you can have a million of these things If it's a tree your modifying you don't copy all the nodes only the nodes from the top of the tree to the modified node - all nodes that don't change are shared. Since each process has its own stack and heap data is well localized - which improves cache performance (so even though it costs to copy data between processes, you might win in cache performance) - actually this is in theory only - you'd have to measure to see if this is the case. > > This can be addressed by either ets or the process directory, and those > allow the internal structure to be safely modified. In the process > directory it's safe because the information is never exported from the > process (except for i/o, which must be special cased). Similarly a private > ets can handle it without problems. And so can a global ets, as then a > unique process specific id (NOT pid, as this needs to survive restarts) can > be used as a part of the key. So those three methods would work. The > question in my mind is how to predict the tradeoffs as it scales up. I > suspect that the process directory would use the least memory, though > possibly it would be the global ets table. A private ets table seems the > most natural approach, but it looks, to my naive eyes, as if it would scale > poorly WRT memory use. You have to write the code and measure. Actually the code might be very different you can do fancy things in ets tables that you can't do in the process dictionary. > > What I'd really like is to use a Mnesia system which kept a cache of active > entries, but didn't require everything to be rolled in from disk. AFAIKT, > however, my choices with a Mnesia table are to keep everything in memory or > to keep everything rolled out to disk. Or RAM replicate over two nodes :-) > > I also haven't been able to determine whether processes that are waiting to > receive a message can be rolled out to inactive memory. There are some > indications ("use enough processes, but not too many") that they can't. > This means that I need to adapt my memory use to the systems that are being > run on rather carefully. If background processes keep activating every live > process to check it's status I could easily end up with severe thrashing. > And *THAT* will affect the design. If I need to hand manage the caching, > then I loose a lot of the benefits that I'm hoping to get from Erlang. Again "it all depends" - how many processes have you, how big are they, how much main memory have you, what requirements have you for dynamic code change latency, fault tolerance etc. Even with Erlang you can get dramatic performance differences if you want 'hot standbys' or 'no error recovery at all' - provisioning for hot standby costs. > > The basic design calls for a huge number of "processes" to be doing n x m > communication, and the simple design calls for each "process" to be able to > send messages to each other process, though only a subset of the messages > would be actually sent. My first sketch of a design called for each > "process" to be mapped to a separate Erlang process, but this doesn't work, > because Erlang doesn't like to have that many processes. Even this simple > design, however, required to figure for allowing 1000 inputs and 1000 > outputs to each "process", and probably well over 100,000 "processes". Most > of them would be idle most of the time, but all would need to be > "activatable" when messaged, and all would need to become dormant when just > waiting for a message. The idea is not a neural net, but it has certain > similarities. Some numbers at last :-) Actually I think Erlang does like to have lots of processes. At say 10KB per process you'd get 100 processes/MB or 100K processes per GB - if you have say 8-16GB then there would be 80-160K per process and you mentioned stat data of 1K earlier I know messaging servers are handling "a few million sessions" per node (which is a few million processes) - Erlang was designed to handle millions of simultaneous connections where most of them are idle most of the time. > > Now if I could actually have one process per "process", then your proposal, > which I recognize as the normal Erlang approach, would make sense, but that > isn't going to work. How do you know? - It might it might not - you have to do the experiment first. > This could be done in that case by having lots of > variables, so that there wouldn't be the need to have any modifications of > deeply nested items, so not much would need to be copied. > > As for KISS, that's a great approach, but it doesn't reveal scaling > problems. When one is adapting an approach one should always KISS, but when > designing which approach to try it's important to pick one that will work > when the system approaches its initial design goal. If all your processes are isolated and share no memory and only interact through message passing then if you *do* run out of steam then you can also go distributed - the whole idea of the design is to scale up by adding more nodes when you run out of power. Making something scalable/fault-tolerant/secure will mean that the individual nodes are less efficient than a non-scalable/error-prone/insecure system BUT you win it all back if you discover one day that you *need* to scale-up In all my time programming I'd say the most difficult thing there is, is to predict performance *before* you've written the code. Why is this? Basically there is no algebra for non-functional behaviour. If X takes time T1 and Y takes time T2 (both on empty machines) how long does it take to do X and Y (is it T1 + T2) ???? Answer: Nobody knows - and what does "and" mean here??? try it and see. Cheers /Joe > > > On 02/07/2018 03:45 PM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: > > On 2018?2?7???? 8?56?01? JST Charles Hixson wrote: > > ...so passing the state as function parameters would > entail huge amounts of copying. (Essentially I'd be modifying nodes > deep within trees.) > > Mutable state would allow me to avoid the copying, and the state is not > exported from the process... > > You seem to be confused a bit about the nature of mutability. If I set a > variable X and in my service loop alter X, the next time the service loop > recurses (loops) X will be a different value -- it will have mutated, but > within the context of a single call of the service loop function the thing > labelled X at the time of the function call will be immutable. > > -module(simple). > -export([start/1]). > > start(X) -> > spawn(fun() -> loop(X) end). > > loop(X) -> > ok = io:format("X is ~p~n", [X]), > receive > {add, Y} -> > NewX = X + Y, > loop(NewX); > {sub, Y} -> > NewX = X - Y, > loop(NewX); > stop -> > ok = io:format("Bye!~n"), > exit(normal); > Unexpected -> > ok = io:format("I don't understand ~tp~n", [Unexpected]), > loop(X) > end. > > > 1> c(simple). > {ok,simple} > 2> P = simple:start(10). > X is 10 > <0.72.0> > 3> P ! {add, 15}. > X is 25 > {add,15} > 4> P ! {sub, 100}. > X is -75 > {sub,100} > > > That is all there is to state maintenance, and this is how gen_servers work. > This is also the form that has the least mysterious memory management model > in the normal case, and the form that gives you all that nifty memory > isolation and fault tolerance Erlang is famous for. Note that X is *not* > copied every time we enter loop/1. If we send a message containing X to > another process, though, *then* X is copied into the context of the process > receiving that message. > > It doesn't matter at all what sort of a structure X is. Here it is a number, > but it could be anything. Gigantic tuples chock full of maps and gb_trees > and other process references and lists of things and queues and whatnot are > the norm -- and none of this causes trouble in the normal case. > > As for mucking around in deep tree structures, altering nodes in trees does > not necessarily entail making a copy of the whole tree. To you as a > programmer there are two versions of the data which are effectively > distinct, but that does not necessarily mean that they are two complete > versions of the data in memory. The nature of copying (or whether copying > happens at all under the hood) and how fast things can be garbage collected > has to do with the nature of the task and what kind of data structures you > are using. Because of immutability you *actually* get to share more data in > the underlying implementation than otherwise. > > Fred provided a great explanation a while back here: > http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2015-December/087040.html > > The general approach to performance issues -- whether memory, I/O > bottlenecks, messaging bottlenecks, or raw thunk time -- is to start out > writing your processes in the vanilla way using state variables in a loop > and only stepping away from that when some extreme deficiency is > demonstrated. If you are going to be spawning a ton of processes at once to > do things then you've really got no way of knowing what is going to break > first until you actually have some working code and can see it break for > yourself. People get themselves into trouble with the process dictionary, > ETS, NIFs, etc. all the time because the use cases often do not warrant the > use of these techniques. > > So keep it simple. Write an example of what you want to do. Try it out. You > might wind up just saturating your processor or memory bus way before you > hit an actual space problem. If something breaks try to measure why -- but > right now without telling anyone the kind of data you're dealing with or > what kinds of operations you're doing or any example code that is known to > break in a certain way at a certain scale we can't really give you much > helpful advice. > > -Craig > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > From charleshixsn@REDACTED Fri Feb 9 03:17:20 2018 From: charleshixsn@REDACTED (Charles Hixson) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:17:20 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Private ets table vs. Process directory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30772859-7d2e-c3ed-d1f1-0d3aab5c0699@earthlink.net> The problem with quantifying those numbers is I've got several different plausible designs for the system, and they have different values for those numbers. E.g., one design called for one process/cpu processor.? In that design each process would need an ets table and a mnesia table.? The mnesia table would be disk-only.? The ets table would hold perhaps 100,000 entries, each of which would maintain a time stamp for time of last access.? When the table started getting full, stale entries would need to be rolled out to the database and purged. This design uses a lot less RAM, and an extremely smaller number of processes. Now the tables would be keyed by a programatically generated key value to allow unique items to be referred to when they are rolled out, so that it's possible to roll them back in. In this design there would be perhaps (at a wild guess!!) one i/o operation for every sqrt (# of CPUs * # of entries/table) function calls.? But they would tend to come in bursts, so i/o would definitely slow things down considerably. Well, that design wasn't optimized for Erlang.? I've been contemplating variations of it over many different languages. Now if I can have one process/entry, and if dormant processes (waiting for a receive) can sleep in virtual memory, then I will need a few million processes, but I will be able to let the system manage the activation/sleep cycle of the processes.? In that case each external signal is likely to induce around 1,000 to 100,000 activations in a chain before relaxing into a settled state.? Each activation will likely only cause about 500 bytes of data to be copied (another wild guess, with part of the uncertainty being how many internal pointers Erlang will need to adjust).? But in this case the data can be passed on the stack, and tail calls can be used. My problem has been that when I searched for limits on the number of Erlang processes I got: /The maximum number of simultaneously alive Erlang processes is by default 32,768. This limit can be configured at startup. For more information, see the //+P //command-line flag in the //erl(1) //manual page in ERTS./ and: /The best thing to do is create a lagom number of processes. Not too many, not too few./ and: /The actual scalability achieved depends on your problem, on your design choices, and on the underlying execution framework. Erlang has some things going for it, and while synthetic benchmarks have been produced, e.g. that show linear scalability within one node up to some 30-40 cores, and linear scalability in an Erlang cluster up to 100 nodes and a total of 1200 cores, the scalability story in Erlang is not so much about that, as it is about achieving real-world scalability in systems that actually do something useful. /Since I have a single system, this left me with the impression that I shouldn't use too many processes, and the best guess of the system at a reasonable maximum was a bit under/32,768.? It *was* clear that I could raise that limit, but raising it by more than an order of magnitude, while allowed, appeared probably unwise. It appears now that this was a mistaken assumption, but I still don't see why I should have guessed differently. / //On 02/08/2018 12:05 PM, Joe Armstrong wrote: > In order to even think about your question I'd need certain data - > words like "huge" as in "huge amounts of copying" and "limited numbers > of processes" > etc. do not convey much meaning. > > Huge means different things to different people - to some people Huge > means Gbytes > (I talked the other day to somebody who used the word Huge - and I > said "how big" > he said tens of PetaBytes) > > To me huge means a data structure that is larger than the RAM on my machine > (which is 16GB) - so not only do you have to say what you meant by huge but also > how your numbers relate to your machine(s). > > Also how long do you have to do what? - Handling huge amounts of data > is easy if you have a big enough disks and enough time - you also need > to say (roughly) how long you have to do what (are we talking seconds, > milliseconds, > hours, days???) > > The more numbers you add to questions like this the better answers > you'll get :-) > > Cheers > > /Joe > > > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 5:56 PM, Charles Hixson > wrote: >> When should a private ets table be preferred over the process directory? >> >> To give some context, I'm expecting to has nearly as many processes as I can >> run, and that each one will need internal mutable state. Also, that the >> mutable state will be complex (partially because of the limited number of >> processes), so passing the state as function parameters would entail huge >> amounts of copying. (Essentially I'd be modifying nodes deep within trees.) >> >> Mutable state would allow me to avoid the copying, and the state is not >> exported from the process. I'm concerned that a huge number of private ets >> tables would use excessive memory, decreasing the number of processes I >> could use...but all the references keep saying not to use the process >> directory. >> >> I'm still designing things now, so this is the ideal time to decide. An >> alternative is that I could use a single public ets table, with each process >> only accessing its own data, but I suspect that might involve a lot of >> locking overhead, even though in principle nothing should need to be locked. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zxq9@REDACTED Fri Feb 9 10:31:35 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 18:31:35 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Use of logical "not" in `case` Message-ID: <2295594.AlB4MibFEk@takoyaki> Someone asked me an interesting question about readability of case statements, and I'd like some alternative opinions (because I can't decide myself). When writing a case statement based on a boolean expression, like whether or not to take an action depending on whether or not a given value is a key in a map, I tend to put the value that causes something to happen first assuming that this will be the most interesting path. For example: foo(Status, Thingy, Assignments) -> case maps:is_key(Thingy, Assignment) of false -> Assignment = fomulate_assignment(Thingy), NewAssignments = maps:put(Thingy, Assignment, Assignments), {assigned, NewAssignments}; true -> {Status, Assignments} end. This isn't the best example case, but you get the idea. We care about the case where Thingy was not already assigned and have to do something there, and we just pass the values back in the case it already was. Here the false case came first -- it could have come second, that doesn't *really* matter to me, but I tend to put the interesting stuff up front. Now compare: foo(Status, Thingy, Assignments) -> case not maps:is_key(Thingy, Assignment) of true -> Assignment = fomulate_assignment(Thingy), NewAssignments = maps:put(Thingy, Assignment, Assignments), {assigned, NewAssignments}; false -> {Status, Assignments} end. The argument was that 'true' should always be the more interesting case (whenever there is a more interesting case) because that reads closer to the semantics of the check being done were we to describe it in conversation "If A is *not* a member of B, then [stuff]". That makes sense to me. It sounds like a reasonable argument. This isn't a big deal either way of course (I find them both equally readable), but I am curious if anyone has a strong opinion on the issue and why. Which would you prefer to encounter when reading a project to understand how it works on github? -Craig From essen@REDACTED Fri Feb 9 10:40:49 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:40:49 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Use of logical "not" in `case` In-Reply-To: <2295594.AlB4MibFEk@takoyaki> References: <2295594.AlB4MibFEk@takoyaki> Message-ID: <36a2d2da-faba-2d11-2668-459451b08ed5@ninenines.eu> On 02/09/2018 10:31 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: [...] > foo(Status, Thingy, Assignments) -> > case not maps:is_key(Thingy, Assignment) of > true -> > Assignment = fomulate_assignment(Thingy), > NewAssignments = maps:put(Thingy, Assignment, Assignments), > {assigned, NewAssignments}; > false -> > {Status, Assignments} > end. [...] > This isn't a big deal either way of course (I find them both equally readable), but I am curious if anyone has a strong opinion on the issue and why. Which would you prefer to encounter when reading a project to understand how it works on github? Oh boy. I would definitely get tripped by this. Or at the very least have some eyebrow action. I have no problem with it in something like C because there's usually no 'else' clause in these cases and it's therefore very easy to read the intent. But in Erlang's case what you effectively do is invert the boolean value below and that requires a little more gymnastic. And I don't think it matches what one would say in a conversation because why would you mention the case where nothing happens at all? -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From roger@REDACTED Fri Feb 9 11:13:38 2018 From: roger@REDACTED (Roger Lipscombe) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:13:38 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Private ets table vs. Process directory In-Reply-To: <30772859-7d2e-c3ed-d1f1-0d3aab5c0699@earthlink.net> References: <30772859-7d2e-c3ed-d1f1-0d3aab5c0699@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 9 February 2018 at 02:17, Charles Hixson wrote: > My problem has been that when I searched for limits on the number of Erlang > processes I got: > The maximum number of simultaneously alive Erlang processes is by default > 32,768. This limit can be configured at startup. For more information, see > the +P command-line flag in the erl(1) manual page in ERTS. The documentation at http://erlang.org/doc/efficiency_guide/advanced.html is wrong. The default (on x86_64, anyway) is 262,144 processes. See http://erlang.org/doc/man/erl.html#max_processes. Data point: I just took a look at our production servers. We've got just under 40K processes per node. You could almost certainly go higher. We're constrained by other factors, so we scale horizontally. From michael.nisi@REDACTED Fri Feb 9 11:10:37 2018 From: michael.nisi@REDACTED (Michael Nisi) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 11:10:37 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Use of logical "not" in `case` In-Reply-To: <2295594.AlB4MibFEk@takoyaki> References: <2295594.AlB4MibFEk@takoyaki> Message-ID: <8083A52A-69D0-4D29-8B31-D7F66E39B39B@gmail.com> The `not maps:is_key` makes it NOT less confusing. `true` or `false` don?t carry meaning per se, thus cannot be used to form an argument. The question gives meaning. Are you hungry? Are you not hungry? Simpler questions are better. Michael > On Feb 9, 2018, at 10:31 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: > > foo(Status, Thingy, Assignments) -> > case not maps:is_key(Thingy, Assignment) of > true -> > Assignment = fomulate_assignment(Thingy), > NewAssignments = maps:put(Thingy, Assignment, Assignments), > {assigned, NewAssignments}; > false -> > {Status, Assignments} > end. From mikpelinux@REDACTED Fri Feb 9 11:17:12 2018 From: mikpelinux@REDACTED (Mikael Pettersson) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 11:17:12 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Use of logical "not" in `case` In-Reply-To: <36a2d2da-faba-2d11-2668-459451b08ed5@ninenines.eu> References: <2295594.AlB4MibFEk@takoyaki> <36a2d2da-faba-2d11-2668-459451b08ed5@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: I do prefer the "true" case first, since that more closely emulates a traditional "if" statement. However, the condition should then be written to match. In your case, I'd prefer a helper function is_key_absent/2 (or sth like that) rather than a barely visible "not". Just my 0.02 SEK. On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > On 02/09/2018 10:31 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: > [...] >> >> foo(Status, Thingy, Assignments) -> >> case not maps:is_key(Thingy, Assignment) of >> true -> >> Assignment = fomulate_assignment(Thingy), >> NewAssignments = maps:put(Thingy, Assignment, Assignments), >> {assigned, NewAssignments}; >> false -> >> {Status, Assignments} >> end. > > [...] >> >> This isn't a big deal either way of course (I find them both equally >> readable), but I am curious if anyone has a strong opinion on the issue and >> why. Which would you prefer to encounter when reading a project to >> understand how it works on github? > > > Oh boy. I would definitely get tripped by this. Or at the very least have > some eyebrow action. > > I have no problem with it in something like C because there's usually no > 'else' clause in these cases and it's therefore very easy to read the > intent. > > But in Erlang's case what you effectively do is invert the boolean value > below and that requires a little more gymnastic. And I don't think it > matches what one would say in a conversation because why would you mention > the case where nothing happens at all? > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From erlang@REDACTED Fri Feb 9 11:44:15 2018 From: erlang@REDACTED (Robert Carbone) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 05:44:15 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Use of logical "not" in `case` In-Reply-To: <36a2d2da-faba-2d11-2668-459451b08ed5@ninenines.eu> References: <2295594.AlB4MibFEk@takoyaki> <36a2d2da-faba-2d11-2668-459451b08ed5@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <69c8688b-9a1d-a330-265c-cd06f97beff1@scriptculture.com> I am with Lo?c, I'd be tripped? *A flurry of thoughts ? ? ? * "When writing a case statement based on a boolean expression" ? As we're only working with a boolean(), why use the case at all? That may be where the confusion is coming form. The big thing happening here is the true or false, I believe using variables makes that clearer. foo(Status, Thingy, Assignments) -> TF = maps:is_key(Thingy, Assignments), if TF =:= false -> {Status, Assignments} ; TF =:= true -> Assignment = fomulate_assignment(Thingy), NewAssignments = maps:put(Thingy, Assignment, Assignments), {assigned, NewAssignments} end. ? I tend to put the shorter clause one near the top(see above), so the reader can get take a breath quicker. ? I am have no problem, mentally, saying "otherwise" when I see a "; true ->" because of the way Erlang treats 'if' expressions. So it can come second just as easily. ? The other day I read that the brain can handle complex data types way better than it candle handle complex logic... I guess anything to does not add to the confusion, not unlike the 'not', isn't that terrible. ;) ? What Dave Thomas said at last year's conference may apply here: Programming is Nested Composable Transformation Rules should be: 1. Work out what should be true -> 2. Make it true ( establishing initial conditions ) 3. Keep it true ( during transformations ) /// Also, mentioned,/ /// ? Ask yourself, how does the language encourage you to think about things?/ /// ? If you make it easier to think about things in terms of reducers, //////the quality of programming will increase. Cheers, Rob Carbone scriptculture.com / On 2/9/18 4:40 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > On 02/09/2018 10:31 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: > [...] >> foo(Status, Thingy, Assignments) -> >> case not maps:is_key(Thingy, Assignment) of >> true -> >> Assignment = fomulate_assignment(Thingy), >> NewAssignments = maps:put(Thingy, Assignment, Assignments), >> {assigned, NewAssignments}; >> false -> >> {Status, Assignments} >> end. > [...] >> This isn't a big deal either way of course (I find them both equally >> readable), but I am curious if anyone has a strong opinion on the >> issue and why. Which would you prefer to encounter when reading a >> project to understand how it works on github? > > Oh boy. I would definitely get tripped by this. Or at the very least > have some eyebrow action. > > I have no problem with it in something like C because there's usually > no 'else' clause in these cases and it's therefore very easy to read > the intent. > > But in Erlang's case what you effectively do is invert the boolean > value below and that requires a little more gymnastic. And I don't > think it matches what one would say in a conversation because why > would you mention the case where nothing happens at all? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zxq9@REDACTED Sun Feb 11 12:54:52 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 20:54:52 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Use of logical "not" in `case` In-Reply-To: References: <2295594.AlB4MibFEk@takoyaki> Message-ID: <1661687.XPkVB6pFkx@takoyaki> On 2018?2?12???? 0?48?56? JST Richard O'Keefe wrote: > (a) I don't care whether false precedes true or true precedes false. > (b) I *definitely* get confused by 'not'. Human beings in general > are stunningly bad with 'not'. Empirical studies have shown > that programmers are not good with it either. > (c) I have learned to be wary of 'boolean'. Long experience teaches > me that either there are more than 2 possibilities, or that there > is more to say one at least one case, and often both. Here I > would erase from my memory all trivial fond memories of maps:is_key/2 > and write > case maps:find(Thingy, Map) > of {ok, _Old_Value} -> ... > ; error -> ... > end > so that there was no doubt about which branch was which. > Seriously: your grandfather had to use IF and COND a lot when he > wrote Lisp, but *we* have pattern matching. > (d) In fact, we really do have pattern matching, so here > case Map > of #{Thingy := _} -> ... > ; _ -> ... > end > perfectly expresses our intent. Indeed! The sentiment seems universal. Thanks to everyone who took the time to explain their opinion on it. Eventually I'll probably compile a style guide from the various cases of "is this annoying or not" sort of style questions I've asked here over the last several years. Eventually. - Craig From g@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 03:44:07 2018 From: g@REDACTED (Guilherme Andrade) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 02:44:07 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] [ANN] locus: Geolocation and ASN lookup of IP addresses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi list, Locus 1.1.1 was released today. For those who don't have the existing thread handy, it's library for looking up geolocation / ASN of IP addresses, using MaxMind GeoLite2. Added: - OTP 18, 19.0, 19.1 and 19.2 support (version 1.0.x required 19.3 or higher) - ability of consulting database metadata, source and version through `:get_info` - ability of subscribing database loader events - ability of specifying connect, download start and idle download timeouts - ability of turning off caching Documentation was moved to HexDocs and test coverage was substantially increased. * Overview: https://github.com/g-andrade/locus * Documentation: https://hexdocs.pm/locus/ -- Guilherme -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED Sun Feb 11 22:05:50 2018 From: valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED (Valery Tikhonov) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 22:05:50 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Message-ID: Hi, I would like to introduce ?oon - build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment Erlang packages. In short: - coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub , what reduces build time - thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo - you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed with `coon install namespace/name` Documentation, articles and links: coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon see Readme.md and doc folder coon_auto_builder (server) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder how to create and build Erlang service from scratch https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ how to prepare Erlang service for deploy https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ example service which uses coon https://github.com/comtihon/example_service example library which uses coon https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang Hope you find this tool useful :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mononcqc@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 14:17:31 2018 From: mononcqc@REDACTED (Fred Hebert) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 08:17:31 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov wrote: > Hi, > I would like to introduce ?oon - build > and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment Erlang > packages. > In short: > > - coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub , > what reduces build time > - thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > - you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service from > prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed with `coon install > namespace/name` > > Documentation, articles and links: > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon see Readme.md and doc > folder > > coon_auto_builder (server) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy https://justtech.blog/2018/02/ > 11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > > example service which uses coon https://github.com/comtihon/ > example_service > > example library which uses coon https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > Hope you find this tool useful :) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathaniel@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:03:21 2018 From: nathaniel@REDACTED (Nathaniel Waisbrot) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 09:03:21 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> I really like the idea of getting pre-built dependencies, so I'm sad that you didn't build this in the Rebar3/Mix/Hex ecosystem. Did you try that and run into problems? To make Fred's comment more explicit: in the USA "coon" is a slur for black people and the first thing that the name "CoonHub" brings to my mind is the Reddit forum that was shut down for being too virulently racist. I don't think there's any way to use that name and not have people think "is this some kind of pro-racist package manager?" > On Feb 11, 2018, at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov wrote: > > Hi, > I would like to introduce ?oon - build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment Erlang packages. > In short: > coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub , what reduces build time > thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed with `coon install namespace/name` > Documentation, articles and links: > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon see Readme.md and doc folder > > coon_auto_builder (server) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > example service which uses coon https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > example library which uses coon https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang Hope you find this tool useful :) > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From essen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:04:05 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:04:05 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people outside of North America know about it. And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly fine because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists angry for sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. Most people will not think twice about it. On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > > wrote: > > Hi, > I would like to introduce ?oon - > build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment > Erlang packages. > In short: > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > , what reduces build time > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed > with `coon install namespace/name` > > Documentation, articles and links: > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > see Readme.md and doc folder > > coon_auto_builder (server) - > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > > > example service which uses coon > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > > > example library which uses coon > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > > > Hope you find this tool useful :) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From dmytro.lytovchenko@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:09:10 2018 From: dmytro.lytovchenko@REDACTED (Dmytro Lytovchenko) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:09:10 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: This one, also depicted in the latest South Park game, is what first comes to mind. I am not spoiled with all that slang too. http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/The_Coon_(character) Not sure how this hero could assist with packaging anything but the name is fine. 2018-02-12 15:04 GMT+01:00 Lo?c Hoguin : > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people outside of > North America know about it. > > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly fine > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists angry for > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > > Most people will not think twice about it. > > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > >> Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? >> >> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov < >> valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> I would like to introduce ?oon - >> build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment >> Erlang packages. >> In short: >> >> * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >> , what reduces build time >> * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for >> Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >> * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service >> from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed >> with `coon install namespace/name` >> >> Documentation, articles and links: >> >> coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >> see Readme.md and doc folder >> >> coon_auto_builder (server) - >> https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >> >> >> how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ >> >> >> how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- >> with-coon/ >> > -with-coon/> >> >> example service which uses coon >> https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >> >> >> example library which uses coon >> https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >> >> >> Hope you find this tool useful :) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joshmbarney@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:15:45 2018 From: joshmbarney@REDACTED (Josh Barney) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 09:15:45 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathaniel@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:20:47 2018 From: nathaniel@REDACTED (Nathaniel Waisbrot) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 09:20:47 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <5598EF7F-2575-41B3-9DEC-760E1B90FD24@waisbrot.net> As an American: most Americans working in a professional capacity would absolutely think twice about it. You don't need to to get upset: nobody's forcing anyone to change names. However, it's good to have information so that we can make informed decisions. Actually, I'd suggest that the way you immediately drew up battle lines about this is a good clue as to how some names will be received and why people might want to avoid such names. > On Feb 12, 2018, at 9:04 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people outside of North America know about it. > > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly fine because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists angry for sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > > Most people will not think twice about it. > > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >> Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? >> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > wrote: >> Hi, >> I would like to introduce ?oon - >> build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment >> Erlang packages. >> In short: >> * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >> , what reduces build time >> * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for >> Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >> * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service >> from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed >> with `coon install namespace/name` >> Documentation, articles and links: >> coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >> see Readme.md and doc folder >> coon_auto_builder (server) - >> https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >> >> how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ >> >> how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ >> >> example service which uses coon >> https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >> >> example library which uses coon >> https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >> >> Hope you find this tool useful :) >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From be.dmitry@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:20:50 2018 From: be.dmitry@REDACTED (Dmitry Belyaev) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 01:20:50 +1100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> Message-ID: I think the world is bigger than just the US and English is used much wider than in only US. In saying it from Australia. My first thought on that name was that it was a shortened "raccoon" which is a funny animal. By the way, do you know what a well known English word and a library Mocha mean in Russian?.. However it doesn't mean people should stop using the word. On 13 February 2018 01:03:21 GMT+11:00, Nathaniel Waisbrot wrote: >I really like the idea of getting pre-built dependencies, so I'm sad >that you didn't build this in the Rebar3/Mix/Hex ecosystem. Did you try >that and run into problems? > >To make Fred's comment more explicit: in the USA "coon" is a slur for >black people and the first thing that the name "CoonHub" brings to my >mind is the Reddit forum that was shut down for being too virulently >racist. I don't think there's any way to use that name and not have >people think "is this some kind of pro-racist package manager?" > > > >> On Feb 11, 2018, at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> I would like to introduce ?oon - >build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment >Erlang packages. >> In short: >> coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >, what reduces build time >> thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for >Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >> you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service from >prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed with `coon >install namespace/name` >> Documentation, articles and links: >> >> coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > see Readme.md and doc folder >> >> coon_auto_builder (server) - >https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > >> how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > >> how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > >> example service which uses coon >https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > >> example library which uses coon >https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >Hope you find this tool >useful :) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peterhickman386@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:26:12 2018 From: peterhickman386@REDACTED (Peter Hickman) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:26:12 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: Well North America is around 320 million people (not sure if that includes Canada at around 36 million). So the chances are that an English speaking programmer also comes form North America is probably quite high. Over here in the UK the word "coon" is recognised as a racial slur (so add 66 million more people). Probably the same in Australia and New Zealand (29 million combined) Unfortunate but the name could be more important than the project -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dm.klionsky@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:28:34 2018 From: dm.klionsky@REDACTED (Dmitry Klionsky) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:28:34 +0300 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> Message-ID: <84cd4738-a304-7fd1-178a-150a3752e9a7@gmail.com> Don't forget https://wiki.cdot.senecacollege.ca/wiki/Pidora_Russian ) On 02/12/2018 05:20 PM, Dmitry Belyaev wrote: > I think the world is bigger than just the US and English is used much > wider than in only US. In saying it from Australia. > > My first thought on that name was that it was a shortened "raccoon" > which is a funny animal. > > By the way, do you know what a well known English word and a library > Mocha mean in Russian?.. However it doesn't mean people should stop > using the word. > > On 13 February 2018 01:03:21 GMT+11:00, Nathaniel Waisbrot > wrote: > > I really like the idea of getting pre-built dependencies, so I'm > sad that you didn't build this in the Rebar3/Mix/Hex ecosystem. > Did you try that and run into problems? > > To make Fred's comment more explicit: in the USA "coon" is a slur > for black people and the first thing that the name "CoonHub" > brings to my mind is the Reddit forum that was shut down for being > too virulently racist. I don't think there's any way to use that > name and not have people think "is this some kind of pro-racist > package manager?" > > > >> On Feb 11, 2018, at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov >> > >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> I would like to introduce ?oon >> - build and dependency management system and tool for easy >> deployment Erlang packages. >> In short: >> >> * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >> , what reduces build time >> * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds >> for Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >> * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang >> service from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang >> installed with `coon install namespace/name` >> >> Documentation, articles and links: >> >> coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon see Readme.md >> and doc folder >> >> coon_auto_builder (server) - >> https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >> >> how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ >> >> how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ >> >> example service which uses coon >> https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >> >> example library which uses coon >> https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >> >> Hope you find this tool useful :) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -- BR, Dmitry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.nisi@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 14:29:18 2018 From: michael.nisi@REDACTED (Michael Nisi) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:29:18 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Naming things is hard. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon > On 12. Feb 2018, at 14:17, Fred Hebert wrote: > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 14:42:55 2018 From: valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED (Valery Tikhonov) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:42:55 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used coon as a short alias to raccoon. As there is already a library called raccoon. On 12 Feb 2018 2:29 p.m., "Michael Nisi" wrote: Naming things is hard. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon On 12. Feb 2018, at 14:17, Fred Hebert wrote: Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From essen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:34:45 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:34:45 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" looks a lot like a racist slur. People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is important and there's no intent to slur here. On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called in an > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial slurs, > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people outside > of North America know about it. > > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly fine > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists angry for > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > > Most people will not think twice about it. > > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > > > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I would like to introduce ?oon - > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment > > Erlang packages. > > In short: > > > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > > , what reduces build time > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed > > with `coon install namespace/name` > > > > Documentation, articles and links: > > > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > > see Readme.md and doc folder > > > > coon_auto_builder (server) - > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > > > > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > > > > > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > > > https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > > > > > > > example service which uses coon > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > > > > > > example library which uses coon > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > > > > > > Hope you find this tool useful :) > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From zxq9@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:34:12 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 23:34:12 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> Message-ID: <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> On 2018?2?13???? 1?20?50? JST Dmitry Belyaev wrote: > By the way, do you know what a well known English word and a library Mocha mean in Russian?.. However it doesn't mean people should stop using the word. This. Emphatically this. I have a longer response, but I'm going to cool down a bit before I post it. Seriously, this crap has gone far enough. -Craig From joshmbarney@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:53:27 2018 From: joshmbarney@REDACTED (Josh Barney) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 09:53:27 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mononcqc@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 15:57:23 2018 From: mononcqc@REDACTED (Fred Hebert) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 09:57:23 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> Message-ID: You can very well name your software 'piss' or 'shitpile' for all I care. Calling it a term that could be racist is certainly another thing entirely and comparing piss to a racist term is certainly a false equivalency. Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may also reflect it. It also impacts the broader Erlang community to be sure. I can't imagine someone doing a keynote in North America with that package manager name and somehow expecting things to be fine, for example. If I were on a program committee, I'd vote against it *and you could do nothing about that no matter if you'd think I'd be offended for no reason or not*. I could just choose to call the code of conduct in question and be done with my explanation. If the author of the *coon* package manager wants to keep going, I would probably strongly suggest they put as many god damn image of raccoons as they can on the website because there is certainly no cues as to what the origin of the name is right here. If they care about the naming less than the shitstorm and perception that will come back to them from it, then maybe renaming is a good idea. For christ's sake, try *rcoon* if you really *have to name it after a raccoon* or something like that. I would personally never want to introduce a tool with this name in a workplace, tutorial, talk, book, or class. It's just not a good idea on any level. Nobody is forcing anyone to rename their packages here, but any marketing person worth a dime would tell you that it does not matter that anyone thinks others should be offended less. They'll react how they'll react and you'll have to deal with the real world fallout coming out of it. It's not presented well, it's bad optics, it's insensitive, and it's a bad idea. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM, wrote: > On 2018?2?13???? 1?20?50? JST Dmitry Belyaev wrote: > > By the way, do you know what a well known English word and a library > Mocha mean in Russian?.. However it doesn't mean people should stop using > the word. > > This. > > Emphatically this. > > I have a longer response, but I'm going to cool down a bit before I post > it. > > Seriously, this crap has gone far enough. > > -Craig > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From essen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:03:53 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:03:53 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning. Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons". On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term > to black people was a very bad intent. > > ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument > has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from > a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position. > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not > realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" > looks a > lot like a racist slur. > > People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is > important and there's no intent to slur here. > > On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called > in an > > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men > > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial > slurs, > > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: > > > > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people > outside > > of North America know about it. > > > > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly > fine > > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists > angry for > > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. > > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > > > > Most people will not think twice about it. > > > > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > I would like to introduce ?oon > - > > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy > deployment > > > Erlang packages. > > > In short: > > > > > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > > > , what reduces build time > > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for > > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service > > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed > > > with `coon install namespace/name` > > > > > > Documentation, articles and links: > > > > > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > > > see Readme.md and doc folder > > > > > > coon_auto_builder (server) - > > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > > > > > > > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > > > > > > > > > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > > > > > > https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > example service which uses coon > > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > > > > > > > > > example library which uses coon > > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > > > > > > > > > Hope you find this tool useful :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > erlang-questions mailing list > > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > erlang-questions mailing list > > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > -- > > Lo?c Hoguin > > https://ninenines.eu > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From chris@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:11:49 2018 From: chris@REDACTED (Chris Waymire) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 07:11:49 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using > racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by > the next reply. Fingers crossed. > > Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any > reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's > using the other meaning. > > Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons > "coons". > > > On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > >> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to >> black people was a very bad intent. >> >> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument >> has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a >> privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position. >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: >> >> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist >> not >> realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" >> looks a >> lot like a racist slur. >> >> People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is >> important and there's no intent to slur here. >> >> On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >> > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called >> in an >> > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white >> men >> > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial >> slurs, >> > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin >> wrote: >> > >> > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people >> outside >> > of North America know about it. >> > >> > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly >> fine >> > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists >> angry for >> > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad >> thing. >> > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. >> > >> > Most people will not think twice about it. >> > >> > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >> > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? >> > > >> > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov >> > > > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi, >> > > I would like to introduce ?oon >> - >> > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy >> deployment >> > > Erlang packages. >> > > In short: >> > > >> > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >> > > , what reduces build time >> > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds >> for >> > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >> > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service >> > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed >> > > with `coon install namespace/name` >> > > >> > > Documentation, articles and links: >> > > >> > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >> > > see Readme.md and doc folder >> > > >> > > coon_auto_builder (server) - >> > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >> > > >> > > >> > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >> > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with- >> coon/ >> > > >> >> > > >> > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >> > > >> > >> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- >> with-coon/ >> > > >> > >> > -with-coon/> >> >> > > >> > > example service which uses coon >> > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >> > > >> > > >> > > example library which uses coon >> > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >> > > >> > > >> > > Hope you find this tool useful :) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > erlang-questions mailing list >> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > erlang-questions mailing list >> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > > >> > >> > -- >> > Lo?c Hoguin >> > https://ninenines.eu >> > _______________________________________________ >> > erlang-questions mailing list >> > erlang-questions@REDACTED >> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > >> >> -- Lo?c Hoguin >> https://ninenines.eu >> >> > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mononcqc@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:16:51 2018 From: mononcqc@REDACTED (Fred Hebert) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:16:51 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: Intent does not matter. Intent is not a thing that makes people go "oh okay I guess it's a good idea then". Intent does not prevent people to run away with a thing and taking the control of the message away from you. There are going to be angry people, there are going to be public fallouts and callouts, and it will be a blocker to the adoption of the project. *It does not matter that you don't think it's insulting. It matters that others do and that they are guaranteed to do a thing about it*. This e-mail thread is already making the rounds on a few slack communities I'm on and the outlook is at worst that the Erlang community is full of racists, or at best that it's full of people with terrible judgement. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Chris Waymire wrote: > The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial > slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use > for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when > the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the > point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your > tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > >> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using >> racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by >> the next reply. Fingers crossed. >> >> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any >> reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's >> using the other meaning. >> >> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons >> "coons". >> >> >> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >> >>> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term >>> to black people was a very bad intent. >>> >>> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument >>> has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a >>> privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: >>> >>> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist >>> not >>> realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" >>> looks a >>> lot like a racist slur. >>> >>> People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is >>> important and there's no intent to slur here. >>> >>> On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>> > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called >>> in an >>> > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white >>> men >>> > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial >>> slurs, >>> > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. >>> > >>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people >>> outside >>> > of North America know about it. >>> > >>> > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly >>> fine >>> > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists >>> angry for >>> > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad >>> thing. >>> > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. >>> > >>> > Most people will not think twice about it. >>> > >>> > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >>> > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? >>> > > >>> > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov >>> > > >> >> >>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Hi, >>> > > I would like to introduce ?oon >>> - >>> > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy >>> deployment >>> > > Erlang packages. >>> > > In short: >>> > > >>> > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >>> > > , what reduces build time >>> > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds >>> for >>> > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >>> > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang >>> service >>> > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed >>> > > with `coon install namespace/name` >>> > > >>> > > Documentation, articles and links: >>> > > >>> > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >>> > > see Readme.md and doc folder >>> > > >>> > > coon_auto_builder (server) - >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >>> > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with- >>> coon/ >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >>> > > >>> > >>> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- >>> with-coon/ >>> > > >>> > >>> >> -with-coon/> >>> >>> > > >>> > > example service which uses coon >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > example library which uses coon >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Hope you find this tool useful :) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >> > >>> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> > > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Lo?c Hoguin >>> > https://ninenines.eu >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> > >>> >>> -- Lo?c Hoguin >>> https://ninenines.eu >>> >>> >> -- >> Lo?c Hoguin >> >> https://ninenines.eu >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamhedd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:18:58 2018 From: jamhedd@REDACTED (Roman Galeev) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:18:58 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire wrote: > The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial > slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use > for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when > the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the > point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your > tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > >> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using >> racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by >> the next reply. Fingers crossed. >> >> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any >> reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's >> using the other meaning. >> >> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons >> "coons". >> >> >> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >> >>> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term >>> to black people was a very bad intent. >>> >>> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument >>> has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a >>> privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: >>> >>> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist >>> not >>> realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" >>> looks a >>> lot like a racist slur. >>> >>> People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is >>> important and there's no intent to slur here. >>> >>> On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>> > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called >>> in an >>> > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white >>> men >>> > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial >>> slurs, >>> > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. >>> > >>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people >>> outside >>> > of North America know about it. >>> > >>> > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly >>> fine >>> > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists >>> angry for >>> > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad >>> thing. >>> > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. >>> > >>> > Most people will not think twice about it. >>> > >>> > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >>> > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? >>> > > >>> > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov >>> > > >> >> >>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Hi, >>> > > I would like to introduce ?oon >>> - >>> > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy >>> deployment >>> > > Erlang packages. >>> > > In short: >>> > > >>> > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >>> > > , what reduces build time >>> > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds >>> for >>> > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >>> > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang >>> service >>> > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed >>> > > with `coon install namespace/name` >>> > > >>> > > Documentation, articles and links: >>> > > >>> > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >>> > > see Readme.md and doc folder >>> > > >>> > > coon_auto_builder (server) - >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >>> > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with- >>> coon/ >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >>> > > >>> > >>> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- >>> with-coon/ >>> > > >>> > >>> >> -with-coon/> >>> >>> > > >>> > > example service which uses coon >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > example library which uses coon >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Hope you find this tool useful :) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >> > >>> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> > > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Lo?c Hoguin >>> > https://ninenines.eu >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> > >>> >>> -- Lo?c Hoguin >>> https://ninenines.eu >>> >>> >> -- >> Lo?c Hoguin >> >> https://ninenines.eu >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -- With best regards, Roman Galeev, +420 702 817 968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From essen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:22:43 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:22:43 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <1ed8d38e-cf78-acc6-aff7-b6f39265dcf2@ninenines.eu> That's the thing about identity politics, it's not all offensive words that are bad, it's only those that can be used to denigrate protected groups (regardless of intent or how old or local the meaning is). On 02/12/2018 04:18 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire > wrote: > > The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a > racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of > common social use for several decades would make people angry is > ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the > slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get > past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your > internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: > > This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others > using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will > call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. > > Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make > any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent > here. He's using the other meaning. > > Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call > racoons "coons". > > > On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > > Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied > this term to black people was a very bad intent. > > ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? > this argument has been plastered all over American news for > years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. > This is the white supremesist position. > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin > > wrote: > > ? ? This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee > brand racist not > ? ? realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation > for "black" > ? ? looks a > ? ? lot like a racist slur. > > ? ? People are getting offended much too easily these days. > Intent is > ? ? important and there's no intent to slur here. > > ? ? On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > ? ? ?> One would presume that all the black persons who > have been called > ? ? in an > ? ? ?> effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for > sport by white men > ? ? ?> with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing > about racial > ? ? slurs, > ? ? ?> not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin > > > ? ? wrote: > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too > many people > ? ? outside > ? ? ?> of North America know about it. > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> And secondly, should you censor a word that's > otherwise perfectly > ? ? fine > ? ? ?> because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical > activists > ? ? angry for > ? ? ?> sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good > or a bad thing. > ? ? ?> Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> Most people will not think twice about it. > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > ? ? ?> > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that > name? > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > ? ? ?> > > >> > ? ? ?> wrote: > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > Hi, > ? ? ?> > I would like to introduce ?oon > ? ? > - > ? ? ?> > build and dependency management system and tool > for easy > ? ? deployment > ? ? ?> > Erlang packages. > ? ? ?> > In short: > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > ? ? ?> > , what reduces build time > ? ? ?> > * thanks to github integration it allows to > trigger new builds for > ? ? ?> > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > ? ? ?> > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run > Erlang service > ? ? ?> > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang > installed > ? ? ?> > with `coon install namespace/name` > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > Documentation, articles and links: > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > > ? ? ?> > > see Readme.md and doc folder > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > coon_auto_builder (server) - > ? ? ?> > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > ? ? ?> > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > ? ? ?> > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > > ? ? ?> > > > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > example service which uses coon > ? ? ?> > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > > ? ? ?> > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > example library which uses coon > ? ? ?> > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > > ? ? ?> > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > Hope you find this tool useful :) > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > _______________________________________________ > ? ? ?> > erlang-questions mailing list > ? ? ?> > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > > ? ? ?> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > ? ? ?> > > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > _______________________________________________ > ? ? ?> > erlang-questions mailing list > ? ? ?> > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > ? ? ?> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> -- > ? ? ?> Lo?c Hoguin > ? ? ?> https://ninenines.eu > ? ? ?> _______________________________________________ > ? ? ?> erlang-questions mailing list > ? ? ?> erlang-questions@REDACTED > > ? ? ?> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? --? ? ?Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > -- > With best regards, > ? ? ?Roman Galeev, > ? ? ?+420?702 817 968 -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From Oliver.Korpilla@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:24:07 2018 From: Oliver.Korpilla@REDACTED (Oliver Korpilla) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:24:07 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: Common social use - by more recent generations maybe. People don't go away after one decade. And that's already gracefully accepting the notion that people don't know the slur anymore. I'm not a native speaker and I'm aware of it being a slur. It's living knowledge for many people. People now know. This thread with its rather small sample of people already proves this point - unless this is the most unusual sample on the planet? Do you think it is? And even if so, if several Erlang enthusiasts exist that know of it, isn't that the interesting example? Everything else is just rhetoric smoke and mirrors. Gesendet:?Montag, 12. Februar 2018 um 16:11 Uhr Von:?"Chris Waymire" An:?"Lo?c Hoguin" Cc:?"Valery Tikhonov" , Erlang Betreff:?Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. ? On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote:This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning. Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons". On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent. ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: ? ? This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not ? ? realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" ? ? looks a ? ? lot like a racist slur. ? ? People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is ? ? important and there's no intent to slur here. ? ? On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: ? ? ?> One would presume that all the black persons who have been called ? ? in an ? ? ?> effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men ? ? ?> with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial ? ? slurs, ? ? ?> not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. ? ? ?> ? ? ?> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin ? ? wrote: ? ? ?> ? ? ?> More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people ? ? outside ? ? ?> of North America know about it. ? ? ?> ? ? ?> And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly ? ? fine ? ? ?> because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists ? ? angry for ? ? ?> sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. ? ? ?> Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. ? ? ?> ? ? ?> Most people will not think twice about it. ? ? ?> ? ? ?> On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: ? ? ?> > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> wrote: ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > Hi, ? ? ?> > I would like to introduce ?oon ? ? - ? ? ?> > build and dependency management system and tool for easy ? ? deployment ? ? ?> > Erlang packages. ? ? ?> > In short: ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub ? ? ?> > , what reduces build time ? ? ?> > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for ? ? ?> > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo ? ? ?> > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service ? ? ?> > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed ? ? ?> > with `coon install namespace/name` ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > Documentation, articles and links: ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon[https://github.com/comtihon/coon] ? ? ?> > see Readme.md and doc folder ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > coon_auto_builder (server) - ? ? ?> > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder[https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder] ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch ? ? ?> > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/[https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/] ? ? ?> > ? ? ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> ? ? https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/[https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/] ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> ? ? ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > example service which uses coon ? ? ?> > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service[https://github.com/comtihon/example_service] ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > example library which uses coon ? ? ?> > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang[https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang] ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > Hope you find this tool useful :) ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > _______________________________________________ ? ? ?> > erlang-questions mailing list ? ? ?> > erlang-questions@REDACTED[mailto:erlang-questions@REDACTED] ? ? ?> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions[http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions] ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> > _______________________________________________ ? ? ?> > erlang-questions mailing list ? ? ?> > erlang-questions@REDACTED[mailto:erlang-questions@REDACTED] ? ? ?> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions[http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions] ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> ? ? ?> -- ? ? ?> Lo?c Hoguin ? ? ?> https://ninenines.eu[https://ninenines.eu] ? ? ?> _______________________________________________ ? ? ?> erlang-questions mailing list ? ? ?> erlang-questions@REDACTED[mailto:erlang-questions@REDACTED] ? ? ?> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions[http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions] ? ? ?> ? ? --? ? ?Lo?c Hoguin ? ? https://ninenines.eu[https://ninenines.eu] ? -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu[https://ninenines.eu] _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED[mailto:erlang-questions@REDACTED] http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions_______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions[http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions] From daniel.goertzen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:24:33 2018 From: daniel.goertzen@REDACTED (Daniel Goertzen) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:24:33 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: I could easily see this being a viral front page reddit kind of thing. You don't want that kind of attention. I encourage you to be proactive about this before The Offended come out in force. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:17 AM Fred Hebert wrote: > Intent does not matter. Intent is not a thing that makes people go "oh > okay I guess it's a good idea then". Intent does not prevent people to run > away with a thing and taking the control of the message away from you. > There are going to be angry people, there are going to be public fallouts > and callouts, and it will be a blocker to the adoption of the project. > > *It does not matter that you don't think it's insulting. It matters that > others do and that they are guaranteed to do a thing about it*. > > This e-mail thread is already making the rounds on a few slack communities > I'm on and the outlook is at worst that the Erlang community is full of > racists, or at best that it's full of people with terrible judgement. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Chris Waymire wrote: > >> The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial >> slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use >> for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when >> the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the >> point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your >> tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: >> >>> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using >>> racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by >>> the next reply. Fingers crossed. >>> >>> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any >>> reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's >>> using the other meaning. >>> >>> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons >>> "coons". >>> >>> >>> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>> >>>> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term >>>> to black people was a very bad intent. >>>> >>>> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this >>>> argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming >>>> from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist >>>> position. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: >>>> >>>> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist >>>> not >>>> realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" >>>> looks a >>>> lot like a racist slur. >>>> >>>> People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is >>>> important and there's no intent to slur here. >>>> >>>> On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>>> > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called >>>> in an >>>> > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white >>>> men >>>> > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial >>>> slurs, >>>> > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people >>>> outside >>>> > of North America know about it. >>>> > >>>> > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly >>>> fine >>>> > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists >>>> angry for >>>> > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad >>>> thing. >>>> > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. >>>> > >>>> > Most people will not think twice about it. >>>> > >>>> > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >>>> > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? >>>> > > >>>> > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov >>>> > > >>> >> >>>> > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > Hi, >>>> > > I would like to introduce ?oon >>>> - >>>> > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy >>>> deployment >>>> > > Erlang packages. >>>> > > In short: >>>> > > >>>> > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >>>> > > , what reduces build time >>>> > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds >>>> for >>>> > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >>>> > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang >>>> service >>>> > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed >>>> > > with `coon install namespace/name` >>>> > > >>>> > > Documentation, articles and links: >>>> > > >>>> > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >>>> > > see Readme.md and doc >>>> folder >>>> > > >>>> > > coon_auto_builder (server) - >>>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >>>> > > >>>> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ >>>> > > >>>> >>>> > > >>>> > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> >>>> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> < >>>> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/> >>>> >>>> > > >>>> > > example service which uses coon >>>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > example library which uses coon >>>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Hope you find this tool useful :) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED> >>>> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Lo?c Hoguin >>>> > https://ninenines.eu >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > erlang-questions mailing list >>>> > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- Lo?c Hoguin >>>> https://ninenines.eu >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Lo?c Hoguin >>> >>> https://ninenines.eu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamhedd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:25:03 2018 From: jamhedd@REDACTED (Roman Galeev) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:25:03 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <1ed8d38e-cf78-acc6-aff7-b6f39265dcf2@ninenines.eu> References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> <1ed8d38e-cf78-acc6-aff7-b6f39265dcf2@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: > denigrate protected groups I'm quite sure you can use any given word for that. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > That's the thing about identity politics, it's not all offensive words > that are bad, it's only those that can be used to denigrate protected > groups (regardless of intent or how old or local the meaning is). > > On 02/12/2018 04:18 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > >> Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire > > wrote: >> >> The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a >> racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of >> common social use for several decades would make people angry is >> ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the >> slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get >> past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your >> internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin > > wrote: >> >> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others >> using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will >> call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. >> >> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make >> any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent >> here. He's using the other meaning. >> >> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call >> racoons "coons". >> >> >> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >> >> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied >> this term to black people was a very bad intent. >> >> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? >> this argument has been plastered all over American news for >> years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. >> This is the white supremesist position. >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin >> > wrote: >> >> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee >> brand racist not >> realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation >> for "black" >> looks a >> lot like a racist slur. >> >> People are getting offended much too easily these days. >> Intent is >> important and there's no intent to slur here. >> >> On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >> > One would presume that all the black persons who >> have been called >> in an >> > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for >> sport by white men >> > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing >> about racial >> slurs, >> > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is >> hurt. >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin >> > >> wrote: >> > >> > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too >> many people >> outside >> > of North America know about it. >> > >> > And secondly, should you censor a word that's >> otherwise perfectly >> fine >> > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical >> activists >> angry for >> > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good >> or a bad thing. >> > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. >> > >> > Most people will not think twice about it. >> > >> > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >> > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that >> name? >> > > >> > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov >> > > > >> > >> >> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi, >> > > I would like to introduce ?oon >> > > - >> > > build and dependency management system and tool >> for easy >> deployment >> > > Erlang packages. >> > > In short: >> > > >> > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >> > > , what reduces build >> time >> > > * thanks to github integration it allows to >> trigger new builds for >> > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >> > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run >> Erlang service >> > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang >> installed >> > > with `coon install namespace/name` >> > > >> > > Documentation, articles and links: >> > > >> > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >> >> > > > > see Readme.md and doc >> folder >> > > >> > > coon_auto_builder (server) - >> > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >> >> > > > > >> > > >> > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >> > > >> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with- >> coon/ >> > -coon/> >> > > >> > /07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ >> > -coon/>> >> > > >> > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >> > > >> > >> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- >> with-coon/ >> > -with-coon/> >> > > >> > >> > /11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ >> > -with-coon/>> >> >> > > >> > > example service which uses coon >> > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >> >> > > > > >> > > >> > > example library which uses coon >> > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >> >> > > > > >> > > >> > > Hope you find this tool useful :) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > erlang-questions mailing list >> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >> >> > > >> > > >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > erlang-questions mailing list >> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >> >> > > >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > >> > >> > -- >> > Lo?c Hoguin >> > https://ninenines.eu >> > _______________________________________________ >> > erlang-questions mailing list >> > erlang-questions@REDACTED >> >> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > >> >> -- Lo?c Hoguin >> https://ninenines.eu >> >> >> -- Lo?c Hoguin >> >> https://ninenines.eu >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> With best regards, >> Roman Galeev, >> +420 702 817 968 >> > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > -- With best regards, Roman Galeev, +420 702 817 968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamhedd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:27:42 2018 From: jamhedd@REDACTED (Roman Galeev) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:27:42 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> <1ed8d38e-cf78-acc6-aff7-b6f39265dcf2@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: Also, is there someone on this list who is really offended by the repo named coon? On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > > denigrate protected groups > > I'm quite sure you can use any given word for that. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > >> That's the thing about identity politics, it's not all offensive words >> that are bad, it's only those that can be used to denigrate protected >> groups (regardless of intent or how old or local the meaning is). >> >> On 02/12/2018 04:18 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: >> >>> Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire >> > wrote: >>> >>> The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a >>> racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of >>> common social use for several decades would make people angry is >>> ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the >>> slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get >>> past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your >>> internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin >> > wrote: >>> >>> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others >>> using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will >>> call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. >>> >>> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make >>> any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent >>> here. He's using the other meaning. >>> >>> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call >>> racoons "coons". >>> >>> >>> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>> >>> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied >>> this term to black people was a very bad intent. >>> >>> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? >>> this argument has been plastered all over American news for >>> years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. >>> This is the white supremesist position. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin >>> > wrote: >>> >>> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee >>> brand racist not >>> realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation >>> for "black" >>> looks a >>> lot like a racist slur. >>> >>> People are getting offended much too easily these days. >>> Intent is >>> important and there's no intent to slur here. >>> >>> On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>> > One would presume that all the black persons who >>> have been called >>> in an >>> > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for >>> sport by white men >>> > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing >>> about racial >>> slurs, >>> > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is >>> hurt. >>> > >>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin >>> > >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too >>> many people >>> outside >>> > of North America know about it. >>> > >>> > And secondly, should you censor a word that's >>> otherwise perfectly >>> fine >>> > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical >>> activists >>> angry for >>> > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good >>> or a bad thing. >>> > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. >>> > >>> > Most people will not think twice about it. >>> > >>> > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >>> > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that >>> name? >>> > > >>> > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov >>> > > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Hi, >>> > > I would like to introduce ?oon >>> >> > - >>> > > build and dependency management system and tool >>> for easy >>> deployment >>> > > Erlang packages. >>> > > In short: >>> > > >>> > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >>> > > , what reduces build >>> time >>> > > * thanks to github integration it allows to >>> trigger new builds for >>> > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >>> > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run >>> Erlang service >>> > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang >>> installed >>> > > with `coon install namespace/name` >>> > > >>> > > Documentation, articles and links: >>> > > >>> > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >>> >>> > > >> > see Readme.md and doc >>> folder >>> > > >>> > > coon_auto_builder (server) - >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >>> >>> > > >> > >>> > > >>> > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >>> > > >>> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with- >>> coon/ >>> >> -coon/> >>> > > >>> >> /07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ >>> >> -coon/>> >>> > > >>> > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >>> > > >>> > >>> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- >>> with-coon/ >>> >> -with-coon/> >>> > > >>> > >>> >> /11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ >>> >> -with-coon/>> >>> >>> > > >>> > > example service which uses coon >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >>> >>> > > >> > >>> > > >>> > > example library which uses coon >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >>> >>> > > >> > >>> > > >>> > > Hope you find this tool useful :) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> >>> >> > >>> > > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> > > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> >>> > > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> > > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Lo?c Hoguin >>> > https://ninenines.eu >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> >>> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> > >>> >>> -- Lo?c Hoguin >>> https://ninenines.eu >>> >>> >>> -- Lo?c Hoguin >>> >>> https://ninenines.eu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> With best regards, >>> Roman Galeev, >>> +420 702 817 968 >>> >> >> -- >> Lo?c Hoguin >> https://ninenines.eu >> > > > > -- > With best regards, > Roman Galeev, > +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> > -- With best regards, Roman Galeev, +420 702 817 968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From essen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:28:15 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:28:15 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> Message-ID: <9d39f45e-22d8-560e-9bbc-c1f592ff4dc8@ninenines.eu> I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that naming is important and that some names are better than others. All names have good and bad connotations. It's up to the author to decide whether he's OK with it or not. Ironic that you mention code of conducts because, to take the one from Erlang Factories in particular[1], it does not write anything against this, at least in plain English. It only does when you accept a new meaning for harassment which is much broader than the original. That meaning is also ideologically driven so in my opinion you would do the author a favor by pointing out the terrible CoC the conference has. [1] http://confcodeofconduct.com/ Cheers, On 02/12/2018 03:57 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > You can very well name your software 'piss' or 'shitpile' for all I > care. Calling it a term that could be racist is certainly another thing > entirely and comparing piss to a racist term is certainly a false > equivalency. > > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. > Picking a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as > this e-mail thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption > figures may also reflect it. It also impacts the broader Erlang > community to be sure. I can't imagine someone doing a keynote in North > America with that package manager name and somehow expecting things to > be fine, for example. If I were on a program committee, I'd vote against > it /and you could do nothing about that no matter if you'd think I'd be > offended for no reason or not/. I could just choose to call the code of > conduct in question and be done with my explanation. > > If the author of the /coon/ package manager wants to keep going, I would > probably strongly suggest they put as many god damn image of raccoons as > they can on the website because there is certainly no cues as to what > the origin of the name is right here. If they care about the naming less > than the shitstorm and perception that will come back to them from it, > then maybe renaming is a good idea. For christ's sake, try /rcoon/ if > you really /have to name it after a raccoon/ or something like that. > > I would personally never want to introduce a tool with this name in a > workplace, tutorial, talk, book, or class. It's just not a good idea on > any level. > > Nobody is forcing anyone to rename their packages here, but any > marketing person worth a dime would tell you that it does not matter > that anyone thinks others should be offended less. They'll react how > they'll react and you'll have to deal with the real world fallout coming > out of it. > > It's not presented well, it's bad optics, it's insensitive, and it's a > bad idea. > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM, > > wrote: > > On 2018?2?13???? 1?20?50? JST Dmitry Belyaev wrote: > > By the way, do you know what a well known English word and a library Mocha mean in Russian?.. However it doesn't mean people should stop using the word. > > This. > > Emphatically this. > > I have a longer response, but I'm going to cool down a bit before I > post it. > > Seriously, this crap has gone far enough. > > -Craig > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From zxq9@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:29:18 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:29:18 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: > Intent does not matter. No. Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway. But... INTENT You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history. This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy. Riddle me this: If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"? I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going. -Craig From zxq9@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:32:09 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:32:09 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37037642.HXoIHDb8GI@takoyaki> On 2018?2?12???? 15?24?33? JST Daniel Goertzen wrote: > I could easily see this being a viral front page reddit kind of thing. You > don't want that kind of attention. I encourage you to be proactive about > this before The Offended come out in force. I would argue that in the context of Erlang, a language with perhaps a score or two genuine experts available for contract work, that actually, YES, you do want the press. But that isn't at all why I am against the contention of naming conventions based on a profoundly dated North American perspective. -Craig From jamhedd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:35:40 2018 From: jamhedd@REDACTED (Roman Galeev) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:35:40 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: > I could easily see this being a viral front page reddit kind of thing. That actually would be the best thing could ever happen to a niche public project. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Daniel Goertzen wrote: > > I could easily see this being a viral front page reddit kind of thing. You don't want that kind of attention. I encourage you to be proactive about this before The Offended come out in force. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:17 AM Fred Hebert wrote: >> >> Intent does not matter. Intent is not a thing that makes people go "oh okay I guess it's a good idea then". Intent does not prevent people to run away with a thing and taking the control of the message away from you. There are going to be angry people, there are going to be public fallouts and callouts, and it will be a blocker to the adoption of the project. >> >> It does not matter that you don't think it's insulting. It matters that others do and that they are guaranteed to do a thing about it. >> >> This e-mail thread is already making the rounds on a few slack communities I'm on and the outlook is at worst that the Erlang community is full of racists, or at best that it's full of people with terrible judgement. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Chris Waymire wrote: >>> >>> The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: >>>> >>>> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. >>>> >>>> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning. >>>> >>>> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons". >>>> >>>> >>>> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent. >>>>> >>>>> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: >>>>> >>>>> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not >>>>> realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" >>>>> looks a >>>>> lot like a racist slur. >>>>> >>>>> People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is >>>>> important and there's no intent to slur here. >>>>> >>>>> On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>>>> > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called >>>>> in an >>>>> > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men >>>>> > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial >>>>> slurs, >>>>> > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people >>>>> outside >>>>> > of North America know about it. >>>>> > >>>>> > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly >>>>> fine >>>>> > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists >>>>> angry for >>>>> > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. >>>>> > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. >>>>> > >>>>> > Most people will not think twice about it. >>>>> > >>>>> > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >>>>> > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? >>>>> > > >>>>> > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov >>>>> > > > >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Hi, >>>>> > > I would like to introduce ?oon >>>>> ; - >>>>> > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy >>>>> deployment >>>>> > > Erlang packages. >>>>> > > In short: >>>>> > > >>>>> > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >>>>> > > ;, what reduces build time >>>>> > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for >>>>> > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >>>>> > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service >>>>> > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed >>>>> > > with `coon install namespace/name` >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Documentation, articles and links: >>>>> > > >>>>> > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >>>>> > > ; see Readme.md and doc folder >>>>> > > >>>>> > > coon_auto_builder (server) - >>>>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >>>>> > > ; >>>>> > > >>>>> > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >>>>> > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ >>>>> > > >>>>> < https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/> ; >>>>> > > >>>>> > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> < https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/> ; >>>>> >>>>> > > >>>>> > > example service which uses coon >>>>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >>>>> > > ; >>>>> > > >>>>> > > example library which uses coon >>>>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >>>>> > > ; >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Hope you find this tool useful :) >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>>>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>>> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>>> > > ; >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>>>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>>> > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Lo?c Hoguin >>>>> > https://ninenines.eu >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > erlang-questions mailing list >>>>> > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>>> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> -- Lo?c Hoguin >>>>> https://ninenines.eu >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Lo?c Hoguin >>>> >>>> https://ninenines.eu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -- With best regards, Roman Galeev, +420 702 817 968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fxn@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:35:47 2018 From: fxn@REDACTED (Xavier Noria) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:35:47 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: Humoristic break: Mitshubishi renamed the "Pajero" in Spain because it means "wanker" in Spanish slang. Points have been made. To me, it's the author's call. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mononcqc@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:46:45 2018 From: mononcqc@REDACTED (Fred Hebert) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:46:45 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, wrote: > On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: > > Intent does not matter. > > No. > > Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with > you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own > part. On technical subjects, anyway. > > But... INTENT > > You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the > weight of history. > I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this kind of shit offensive. I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time with both professionally and personally. > > This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care > about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is > not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. > That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just > in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete > socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other > parties we enjoy. > I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*. Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms: - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon Insulting term for a black person - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the meaning of the picture. Usually found in captions. - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat The definitive pet. - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog Not a cat - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox A beautiful and attractive woman - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by a casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more money. Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one. *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of the author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author): In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism > that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their political views, > historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical > or personal attributes?to distill meaning from the author's work. In this > type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a > definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading > may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: > "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding > interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text". > > [...] > > In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and > textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", > drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, > individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the > impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the > writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in > its destination", or its audience. > The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you are attempting to criticize. Intent does not matter. > Riddle me this: > If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE > OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we > somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value > systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) > that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this > all brought back to a "reasonble default"? > > I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound > respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly > considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up > eventualy going. > I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that *raccoon* was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much windmill tilting you'll get into. If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW Flippancy.* Loic brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any difference the moment this gets out of here. If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign to you? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmartin4242@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:53:17 2018 From: mmartin4242@REDACTED (Michael L Martin) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:53:17 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: <00ea2584-17b7-4653-13ba-bfc33adb9a3e@gmail.com> Spot on, Fred. I concur with every point. On 2018-02-12 10:46 AM, Fred Hebert wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, > wrote: > > On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: > > Intent does not matter. > > No. > > Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds > with you on several subjects, each time having learned something > for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway. > > But... INTENT > > You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win > against the weight of history. > > > I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god > damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find > this kind of shit offensive. > > I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine > with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent > time with both professionally and personally. > > > This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you > care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW > flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this > winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it > quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software > system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one > of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy. > > > I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very > reasonably be construed as racist is /SJW flippancy/. > > Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban > Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms: > > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon > > Insulting term for a black person > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo > > An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the > meaning of the picture. Usually found in captions. > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat > > The definitive pet. > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog > > Not a cat > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox > > A beautiful and attractive woman > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale > > noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by > a casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more > money. > > ?Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one. > > /Intent does not matter/ is not me saying that the author of the lib > is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original > intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's > interpretation. Look this is even a principle in literary review > called /The death of the author/ > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author > ): > > In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and > criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their > political views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, > psychology, or other biographical or personal attributes?to > distill meaning from the author's work. In this type of criticism, > the experiences and biases of the author serve as a definitive > "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading may > be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and > flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, > corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that > text". > > [...] > > In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text > and textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of > quotations", drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather > than from one, individual experience. The essential meaning of a > work depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than the > "passions" or "tastes" of the writer; "a text's unity lies not in > its origins", or its creator, "but in its destination", or its > audience. > > > The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be > around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author > intends is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can > get away from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must > be visible and enough in your face that it won't be construed as > supporting the system you are attempting to criticize. > > Intent does not matter. > > > > Riddle me this: > If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE > WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is > it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic > and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than > our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? > By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble > default"? > > I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a > profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you > have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of > discourse winds up eventualy going. > > > I very much stand by /intent does not matter/. It matters to me in > this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that > /raccoon/ was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that > other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same > is downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on > explaining every single person the origin of the name for things to go > well, you have taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This > is the hill you die on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking > serious warning of how much windmill tilting you'll get into. > > If you want me to go by the /Let it Crash/ maxim, the idea of /let it > crash/ is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail > early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to > correct corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this > stupid ass project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get > stuck trying to handle every error coming their way in the near > future. Look at it this way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in > this single thread: /SJW Flippancy./ Loic brought up /identity > politics/. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it who's offended in > the first place as if that made any difference the moment this gets > out of here. > > If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking > place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning > sign to you? > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zxq9@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:53:37 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:53:37 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: <12551468.2I6ZVV5XoW@takoyaki> On 2018?2?12???? 16?35?47? JST Xavier Noria wrote: > Humoristic break: Mitshubishi renamed the "Pajero" in Spain because it > means "wanker" in Spanish slang. > > Points have been made. To me, it's the author's call. HEY! That OFFENDS me as a JAPANESE citizen! Oh, and that is inauthentic because I happen to be ETHNICALLY CAUCASIAN?!? Well, I'll just go claim both of those as dual point by which to feel OFFENDED, you unsufferable prick! WHAT WILL MY KIDS THINK OF THIS! GENERATIONS OF OFFENSE! AHHHHHHHH!!!! ... Ridiculous. Just freaking ridiculous. Can we PLEASE get back to caring about whether a software project helps solve enviro-centric problems for which Erlang in particular is infamous? ============ See my point? Tiptoeing around offenses, especially ones which teeter half on ethnicity and half on nationality, are simply too hard to satisfy. Don't even get me started on the subjectivity of "gender politics". Perception VS intention. The eternal struggle -- one which those outside the actual circumstance of stress are powerless to undersatnd. That said, those who have the option to perceive offense or not are greater men for giving the "benefit of the doubt". Amazing how such a deeply ancient and culturally agnostic concept seems to find universal resonance. Some guys wrote a project that was useful. Most people found it useful. A handful of people found the name funny. A tiny minority decided to be offended by it. BUT THE USERS NEVER HAD ANY IDEA. Wtf... It is 2018 and wtf... Resuming radio silence, as this is what passes for "critical discourse" these days. Bye! Ugh... Will I be reviled in some circles for this post? Certainly. Will I be reviled in some circles that wouldn't already be "offended" by the fact that I am an ex-Green Beret? No. So screw it. This crap has gone far enough and the backswing isn't going to feel good for ANYONE. -Craig From zkessin@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:56:14 2018 From: zkessin@REDACTED (Zachary Kessin) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:56:14 +0200 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through something like this in a different context and I have to say "its not reasonable that is offended" is a pretty bad apology. ? Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics +972 54 234 3956 / +44 203 734 9790 / +1 617 778 7213 Book a meeting with me On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, wrote: > >> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: >> > Intent does not matter. >> >> No. >> >> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with >> you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own >> part. On technical subjects, anyway. >> >> But... INTENT >> >> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against >> the weight of history. >> > > I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god > damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this > kind of shit offensive. > > I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine with > that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time with > both professionally and personally. > > >> >> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care >> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is >> not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. >> That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just >> in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete >> socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other >> parties we enjoy. >> > > I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very > reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*. > > Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban > Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms: > > - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon > Insulting term for a black person > - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo > An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the meaning > of the picture. Usually found in captions. > - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat > The definitive pet. > - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog > Not a cat > - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox > A beautiful and attractive woman > - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale > noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by a > casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more money. > > Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one. > > *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib is > racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, > the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look > this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of the > author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author): > > In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism >> that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their political views, >> historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical >> or personal attributes?to distill meaning from the author's work. In this >> type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a >> definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading >> may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: >> "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding >> interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text". >> >> [...] >> >> In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and >> textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", >> drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, >> individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the >> impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the >> writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in >> its destination", or its audience. >> > > The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be > around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends > is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away > from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and > enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you > are attempting to criticize. > > Intent does not matter. > > > >> Riddle me this: >> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE >> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we >> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value >> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) >> that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this >> all brought back to a "reasonble default"? >> >> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound >> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly >> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up >> eventualy going. >> > > I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in this > context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that *raccoon* > was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people > will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd > and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single > person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the > losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What > I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much > windmill tilting you'll get into. > > If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it > crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail early > and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct corrupted > state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass project name > as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to handle every > error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this way. You even > have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW Flippancy.* Loic > brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it > who's offended in the first place as if that made any difference the moment > this gets out of here. > > If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking > place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign > to you? > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamhedd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:08:21 2018 From: jamhedd@REDACTED (Roman Galeev) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:08:21 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present). Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of these people? On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin wrote: > I would like to second what Fred said. I just went > through something like this in a different context and I have to say "its > not reasonable that is offended" is a pretty bad apology. > ? > > Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software > I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics > +972 54 234 3956 <+972%2054-234-3956> / +44 203 734 9790 > <+44%2020%203734%209790> / +1 617 778 7213 <(617)%20778-7213> > Book a meeting with me > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, wrote: >> >>> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: >>> > Intent does not matter. >>> >>> No. >>> >>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with >>> you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own >>> part. On technical subjects, anyway. >>> >>> But... INTENT >>> >>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against >>> the weight of history. >>> >> >> I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god >> damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this >> kind of shit offensive. >> >> I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine >> with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time >> with both professionally and personally. >> >> >>> >>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care >>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is >>> not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. >>> That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just >>> in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete >>> socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other >>> parties we enjoy. >>> >> >> I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very >> reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*. >> >> Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban >> Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms: >> >> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon >> Insulting term for a black person >> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo >> An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the meaning >> of the picture. Usually found in captions. >> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat >> The definitive pet. >> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog >> Not a cat >> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox >> A beautiful and attractive woman >> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale >> noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by a >> casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more money. >> >> Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one. >> >> *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib is >> racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, >> the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look >> this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of the >> author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author): >> >> In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism >>> that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their political views, >>> historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical >>> or personal attributes?to distill meaning from the author's work. In this >>> type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a >>> definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading >>> may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: >>> "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding >>> interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text". >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and >>> textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", >>> drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, >>> individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the >>> impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the >>> writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in >>> its destination", or its audience. >>> >> >> The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be >> around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends >> is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away >> from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and >> enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you >> are attempting to criticize. >> >> Intent does not matter. >> >> >> >>> Riddle me this: >>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE >>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we >>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value >>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) >>> that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this >>> all brought back to a "reasonble default"? >>> >>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound >>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly >>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up >>> eventualy going. >>> >> >> I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in this >> context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that *raccoon* >> was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people >> will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd >> and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single >> person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the >> losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What >> I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much >> windmill tilting you'll get into. >> >> If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it >> crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail >> early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct >> corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass >> project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to >> handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this >> way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW >> Flippancy.* Loic brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make a >> tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any >> difference the moment this gets out of here. >> >> If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking >> place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign >> to you? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -- With best regards, Roman Galeev, +420 702 817 968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zxq9@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:11:43 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 01:11:43 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1917107.fPEfF2J4D8@takoyaki> On 2018?2?12???? 17?08?21? JST Roman Galeev wrote: > The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred > speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or > could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present). Maybe > the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know? > And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild > already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of > these people? "these people" THESE PEOPLE!?! AHHH! ==== I rest my case. As someone who could easily fall into the category of "these people" if I so chose. Srsly, people, can we talk about what the project actually does for once instead of what it is named? -Craig From kostis@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:13:36 2018 From: kostis@REDACTED (Kostis Sagonas) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:13:36 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <6070142c-2f72-1ed2-e5c8-3d2dd97146d4@cs.ntua.gr> On 02/12/2018 04:16 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > > This e-mail thread is already making the rounds on a few slack > communities I'm on and the outlook is//at worst that the Erlang > community is full of racists, or at best that it's full of people with > terrible judgement. Personally, I do not care about what happens on "slack" because I have not subscribed to it. I _do_ care about this mailing list because I am interested in the *Erlang language*. Today, I have received just two e-mails with Erlang-related announcements and, after Fred's sincere question to the author on whether he is aware of the connotations that the word "coon" has - which by the way I think is very appropriate as a *single* mail to the author here, by now several tens of mails about the possible meanings of different words in different languages, and about how to name or not name software. I can admit that perhaps these are more important issues than those that answer Erlang language-related questions and inform about developments, but can you guys please move this discussion to slack or some other forum where such discussions are more appropriate? Can we instead see in this list some mail(s) whether this "coon" tool (or whatever other name it may get) is actually useful (or not) for the community of the language, and how it can possibly improve? Thanks, Kostis From mononcqc@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:13:54 2018 From: mononcqc@REDACTED (Fred Hebert) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:13:54 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Roman Galeev wrote: > The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred > speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or > could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present). > I know because of I have an ounce of empathy and I *know* these people already. I know you really really want me to have invented them but I did not. Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we > know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild > already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of > these people? > > Yeah maybe they could be offended by other names. Maybe they won't. It's up to the author to figure out if they want to deal with it. What I'm giving here is a very real warning. If the author is fine offending people, that's up to them, and they'll deal with it. I won't be the one defending them. Loic can correct me if he's wrong, but his *Cowboy* web server took its initial name because *cowboys kill apaches* if I recall old conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He made the call and ran with it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:16:34 2018 From: t@REDACTED (Tristan Sloughter) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 08:16:34 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: <1518452194.3291870.1268120784.46BB66BD@webmail.messagingengine.com> This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away. For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. -- Tristan Sloughter "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson t@REDACTED On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: > On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: > > Intent does not matter. > > No. > > Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with > you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own > part. On technical subjects, anyway. > > But... INTENT > > You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against > the weight of history. > > This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care > about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy > is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these > days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, > not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a > concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the > other parties we enjoy. > > Riddle me this: > If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE > OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we > somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value > systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software > systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart > mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"? > > I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound > respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly > considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up > eventualy going. > > -Craig > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:17:00 2018 From: krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED (Krzysztof Jurewicz) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:17:00 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> Message-ID: <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Fred Hebert writes: > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may > also reflect it. Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: ? raccoon; ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person. I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage. Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned? (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). From jamhedd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:20:36 2018 From: jamhedd@REDACTED (Roman Galeev) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:20:36 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: > I know because of I have an ounce of empathy and I know these people already. So, as you know these people, you've checked the name coon with them, and they told you that they are offended, right? In this case, I think the tool should be renamed. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Roman Galeev wrote: > >> The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but >> Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could >> they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not >> present). >> > > I know because of I have an ounce of empathy and I *know* these people > already. I know you really really want me to have invented them but I did > not. > > Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we >> know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild >> already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of >> these people? >> >> > Yeah maybe they could be offended by other names. Maybe they won't. It's > up to the author to figure out if they want to deal with it. What I'm > giving here is a very real warning. If the author is fine offending people, > that's up to them, and they'll deal with it. I won't be the one defending > them. > > Loic can correct me if he's wrong, but his *Cowboy* web server took its > initial name because *cowboys kill apaches* if I recall old conference > conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far Loic has not had any > fall out or enough offended people to make any change, and he did build a > successful business out of it. He made the call and ran with it. > > -- With best regards, Roman Galeev, +420 702 817 968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mononcqc@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:21:20 2018 From: mononcqc@REDACTED (Fred Hebert) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:21:20 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it. My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name. That is 100% my point. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: > Fred Hebert writes: > > > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. > Picking > > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this > e-mail > > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may > > also reflect it. > > Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s > most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: > > ? raccoon; > ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black > person. > > I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context > this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also > known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage. > > Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist > meanings should be eventually abandoned? > > (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nx@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:28:14 2018 From: nx@REDACTED (nx) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:28:14 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon. The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: > What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked > and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that > explanation and I'm ready to believe it. > > My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, > and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the > context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be > interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it > will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and > keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever > they want in that name. > > That is 100% my point. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < > krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: > >> Fred Hebert writes: >> >> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. >> Picking >> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this >> e-mail >> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may >> > also reflect it. >> >> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >> >> ? raccoon; >> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >> person. >> >> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context >> this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also >> known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage. >> >> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist >> meanings should be eventually abandoned? >> >> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.duesing@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:52:22 2018 From: chris.duesing@REDACTED (Chris Duesing) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:52:22 -0600 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: > For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of > this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call > a raccoon a coon. > > The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: > >> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I >> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that >> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. >> >> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, >> and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the >> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be >> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it >> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and >> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever >> they want in that name. >> >> That is 100% my point. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < >> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: >> >>> Fred Hebert writes: >>> >>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. >>> Picking >>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this >>> e-mail >>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures >>> may >>> > also reflect it. >>> >>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >>> >>> ? raccoon; >>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >>> person. >>> >>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this >>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that >>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon >>> usage. >>> >>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist >>> meanings should be eventually abandoned? >>> >>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russell@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:58:38 2018 From: russell@REDACTED (Russell Brown) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:58:38 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <1518452194.3291870.1268120784.46BB66BD@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> <1518452194.3291870.1268120784.46BB66BD@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can?t believe there?s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I?d apologises and change it. Maybe that?s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no. If there?s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon. I need to use erlang for my work, please don?t stick with this name. I don?t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also? On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter wrote: > This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away. > > For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. > > -- > Tristan Sloughter > "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson > t@REDACTED > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: >> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: >>> Intent does not matter. >> >> No. >> >> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with >> you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own >> part. On technical subjects, anyway. >> >> But... INTENT >> >> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against >> the weight of history. >> >> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care >> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy >> is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these >> days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, >> not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a >> concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the >> other parties we enjoy. >> >> Riddle me this: >> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE >> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we >> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value >> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software >> systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart >> mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"? >> >> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound >> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly >> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up >> eventualy going. >> >> -Craig >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From trapexit@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:59:43 2018 From: trapexit@REDACTED (Antonio SJ Musumeci) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:59:43 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: "Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word." That's simply false and takes next to no time to prove as much. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/coon noun 1. raccoon . 2. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a contemptuous term used to refer to a black person. 3. a rustic or undignified person. Word Origin and History for coon n. short for raccoon , 1742, American English. It was the nickname of Whig Party members in U.S. c.1848-60, as the raccoon was the party's symbol, and it also had associations with frontiersmen (who stereotypically wore raccoon-skin caps), which probably ultimately was the source of the Whig Party sense (the party's 1840 campaign was built on a false image of wealthy William Henry Harrison as a rustic frontiersman). The insulting U.S. meaning "black person" was in use by 1837, said to be ultimately from Portuguese barracoos "building constructed to hold slaves for sale." No doubt boosted by the enormously popular blackface minstrel act "Zip Coon" (George Washington Dixon) which debuted in New York City in 1834. But it is perhaps older (one of the lead characters in the 1767 colonial comic opera "The Disappointment" is a black man named Raccoon). Coon's age is 1843, American English, probably an alteration of British a crow's age. The word coon has long been used as a short to raccoon. As someone who grew up in a rural area where raccoons regularly killed chickens, ate pet food, and got into people's things I assure you it was in common usage. We also shortened coyote to coyot. Outside that... * Coon Mountain: http://adirondacklandtrust.org/Explore/Coon-Mountain * Coon Mountain crater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater * Coon Creek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_Creek * Coon Rapids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_Rapids,_Minnesota https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_Rapids,_Iowa * coonhound: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonhound * coon hunting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_hunting * The Coon: A South Park character: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coon On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Chris Duesing wrote: > I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, > there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans > are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't > offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh > I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking > ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only > intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: > >> For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of >> this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call >> a raccoon a coon. >> >> The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is >> disappointing. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: >> >>> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I >>> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that >>> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. >>> >>> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he >>> is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the >>> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be >>> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it >>> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and >>> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever >>> they want in that name. >>> >>> That is 100% my point. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < >>> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: >>> >>>> Fred Hebert writes: >>>> >>>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. >>>> Picking >>>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this >>>> e-mail >>>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures >>>> may >>>> > also reflect it. >>>> >>>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >>>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >>>> >>>> ? raccoon; >>>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >>>> person. >>>> >>>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this >>>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that >>>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon >>>> usage. >>>> >>>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist >>>> meanings should be eventually abandoned? >>>> >>>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:01:43 2018 From: jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED (Jesper Louis Andersen) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:01:43 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is also "Maine Coon", which is a cat breed. Personally, I'd do two things: 1. I'm interested in the etymology of the word in Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian etc and why that name was chosen in the first place. 2. I'd probably change the name. There is a well known proof assistant named "Coq" (french for "Rooster"). Apart from snickers and giggles, one has to make the case that a certain amount of internationality is to be expected of library names. It simply creates more trouble than it solves. Of course, the balance is that an innocent western name might really upset the asian population in a major asian country (China, India, Japan, ...), and few people care about this. It is just that Americans tend to self-immolate as soon as you mention their past. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:52 PM Chris Duesing wrote: > I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, > there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans > are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't > offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh > I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking > ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only > intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: > >> For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of >> this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call >> a raccoon a coon. >> >> The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is >> disappointing. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: >> >>> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I >>> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that >>> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. >>> >>> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he >>> is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the >>> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be >>> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it >>> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and >>> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever >>> they want in that name. >>> >>> That is 100% my point. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < >>> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: >>> >>>> Fred Hebert writes: >>>> >>>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. >>>> Picking >>>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this >>>> e-mail >>>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures >>>> may >>>> > also reflect it. >>>> >>>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >>>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >>>> >>>> ? raccoon; >>>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >>>> person. >>>> >>>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this >>>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that >>>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon >>>> usage. >>>> >>>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist >>>> meanings should be eventually abandoned? >>>> >>>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric.des.courtis@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:04:22 2018 From: eric.des.courtis@REDACTED (Eric des Courtis) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:04:22 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth I didn't know coon was a racial slur. I really assumed it meant raccoon and I am from Ontario Canada. I don't really care personally if the name gets changed. But judging by how much time has already been wasted discussing this I think it would be wise for the author to change the name. It's really sad that we live in a society where people are so sensitive to this. Where I alive I think it is assumed nobody is racist. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Chris Duesing wrote: > I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, > there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans > are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't > offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh > I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking > ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only > intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: > >> For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of >> this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call >> a raccoon a coon. >> >> The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is >> disappointing. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: >> >>> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I >>> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that >>> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. >>> >>> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he >>> is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the >>> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be >>> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it >>> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and >>> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever >>> they want in that name. >>> >>> That is 100% my point. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < >>> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: >>> >>>> Fred Hebert writes: >>>> >>>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. >>>> Picking >>>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this >>>> e-mail >>>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures >>>> may >>>> > also reflect it. >>>> >>>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >>>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >>>> >>>> ? raccoon; >>>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >>>> person. >>>> >>>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this >>>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that >>>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon >>>> usage. >>>> >>>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist >>>> meanings should be eventually abandoned? >>>> >>>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zxq9@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:03:12 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 02:03:12 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4316080.WIC2GzuKxp@takoyaki> On 2018?2?12???? 10?52?22? JST Chris Duesing wrote: > I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, > there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans > are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't > offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh > I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking > ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only > intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. Oh, so since YOU haven't heard it used to refer to "racoon" then your experience is its only meaning? I grew up in North Texas and Lousiana. I hunted coons for the greater part of my childhood, partly because we could sell the furs and partly because we could eat them (delicious in meat pies, something folks like you actually privileged folk would turn your noses up at). We rarely called them "racoons" because, well, it's a whole extra syllable and we don't like speaking at length so much. I have not once heard this term used as a racial slur outside of movies, despite having grown up in a part of the U.S. from which the use of this supposed uniform slur originates. Were there racists? Sure. But they had quite distinct terms for ethnically enhanced persons of a desirbable social quality and similarly derives persons of an undesirable social quality -- and the undesirable term was not "coon". Note, by the way, that it was the social quality of the individual to which the reference applied, not the ethnicity. Whatever you think you know about the American South, you evidently do not. This entire thread is ridiculous. -Craig From zxq9@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:08:31 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 02:08:31 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2675624.nLBjJ6hgNl@takoyaki> On 2018?2?12???? 12?04?22? JST Eric des Courtis wrote: > For what it's worth I didn't know coon was a racial slur. I really assumed > it meant raccoon and I am from Ontario Canada. > > I don't really care personally if the name gets changed. But judging by how > much time has already been wasted discussing this I think it would be wise > for the author to change the name. Indeed. Aversion is much more rewarding than engagement. Especially these days. > It's really sad that we live in a society where people are so sensitive to > this. Where I alive I think it is assumed nobody is racist. PING! There it is, the nail right on the head. I live in a place where *I* am the one racially disparaged by default. And yet the safest assumption is that MOST people view my work in isolation of my ethnic origin, which so far has been true in every case where it actually mattered at all. -Craig From jamhedd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:10:41 2018 From: jamhedd@REDACTED (Roman Galeev) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 18:10:41 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <4316080.WIC2GzuKxp@takoyaki> References: <4316080.WIC2GzuKxp@takoyaki> Message-ID: > I'm interested in the etymology of the word in Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian etc and why that name was chosen in the first place. Raccoon in Russian sounds completely different [jenot], coon itself (pronounces as [kun]) is not even a word. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:03 PM, wrote: > On 2018?2?12???? 10?52?22? JST Chris Duesing wrote: > > I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, > > there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white > Europeans > > are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't > > offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh > > I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking > > ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only > > intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. > > Oh, so since YOU haven't heard it used to refer to "racoon" then your > experience is its only meaning? > > I grew up in North Texas and Lousiana. I hunted coons for the greater part > of my childhood, partly because we could sell the furs and partly because > we could eat them (delicious in meat pies, something folks like you > actually privileged folk would turn your noses up at). We rarely called > them "racoons" because, well, it's a whole extra syllable and we don't like > speaking at length so much. > > I have not once heard this term used as a racial slur outside of movies, > despite having grown up in a part of the U.S. from which the use of this > supposed uniform slur originates. Were there racists? Sure. But they had > quite distinct terms for ethnically enhanced persons of a desirbable social > quality and similarly derives persons of an undesirable social quality -- > and the undesirable term was not "coon". Note, by the way, that it was the > social quality of the individual to which the reference applied, not the > ethnicity. > > Whatever you think you know about the American South, you evidently do not. > > This entire thread is ridiculous. > > -Craig > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -- With best regards, Roman Galeev, +420 702 817 968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krister.svanlund@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:44:12 2018 From: krister.svanlund@REDACTED (Krister Svanlund) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:44:12 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: I love it how this thread essentially turned into the anti-SJW crowd becoming angry and upset for someone politely pointing out a possibly bad connotation of the name. Yet again proving who the easily offended people are ?? On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:36 PM Xavier Noria wrote: > Humoristic break: Mitshubishi renamed the "Pajero" in Spain because it > means "wanker" in Spanish slang. > > Points have been made. To me, it's the author's call. > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 16:59:50 2018 From: valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED (Valery Tikhonov) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:59:50 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> <1ed8d38e-cf78-acc6-aff7-b6f39265dcf2@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: Frankly speaking, I've expected another type of questions, when writing announcement. Again - I selected name `coon` because `raccoon` was occupied. That's all. Also I've always beleived that programmers are beyond the politics, sexism and all kind of discriminations. So not using library, that can potentially be useful is a little bit surprising for me. It's a pity, that today I can't fully use language to express what I would like to. But to make everyone happy, I will create a wrapper around coon for those who don't like coon name itself. P.S.: Just think - prohibiting words in the language will finally leave you with empty vocabulary. 2018-02-12 16:25 GMT+01:00 Roman Galeev : > > denigrate protected groups > > I'm quite sure you can use any given word for that. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > >> That's the thing about identity politics, it's not all offensive words >> that are bad, it's only those that can be used to denigrate protected >> groups (regardless of intent or how old or local the meaning is). >> >> On 02/12/2018 04:18 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: >> >>> Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire >> > wrote: >>> >>> The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a >>> racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of >>> common social use for several decades would make people angry is >>> ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the >>> slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get >>> past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your >>> internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin >> > wrote: >>> >>> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others >>> using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will >>> call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. >>> >>> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make >>> any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent >>> here. He's using the other meaning. >>> >>> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call >>> racoons "coons". >>> >>> >>> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>> >>> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied >>> this term to black people was a very bad intent. >>> >>> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? >>> this argument has been plastered all over American news for >>> years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. >>> This is the white supremesist position. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin >>> > wrote: >>> >>> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee >>> brand racist not >>> realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation >>> for "black" >>> looks a >>> lot like a racist slur. >>> >>> People are getting offended much too easily these days. >>> Intent is >>> important and there's no intent to slur here. >>> >>> On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: >>> > One would presume that all the black persons who >>> have been called >>> in an >>> > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for >>> sport by white men >>> > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing >>> about racial >>> slurs, >>> > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is >>> hurt. >>> > >>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin >>> > >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too >>> many people >>> outside >>> > of North America know about it. >>> > >>> > And secondly, should you censor a word that's >>> otherwise perfectly >>> fine >>> > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical >>> activists >>> angry for >>> > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good >>> or a bad thing. >>> > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. >>> > >>> > Most people will not think twice about it. >>> > >>> > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >>> > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that >>> name? >>> > > >>> > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov >>> > > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Hi, >>> > > I would like to introduce ?oon >>> >> > - >>> > > build and dependency management system and tool >>> for easy >>> deployment >>> > > Erlang packages. >>> > > In short: >>> > > >>> > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >>> > > , what reduces build >>> time >>> > > * thanks to github integration it allows to >>> trigger new builds for >>> > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >>> > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run >>> Erlang service >>> > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang >>> installed >>> > > with `coon install namespace/name` >>> > > >>> > > Documentation, articles and links: >>> > > >>> > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >>> >>> > > >> > see Readme.md and doc >>> folder >>> > > >>> > > coon_auto_builder (server) - >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >>> >>> > > >> > >>> > > >>> > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >>> > > >>> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with- >>> coon/ >>> >> -coon/> >>> > > >>> >> /07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ >>> >> -coon/>> >>> > > >>> > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >>> > > >>> > >>> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- >>> with-coon/ >>> >> -with-coon/> >>> > > >>> > >>> >> /11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ >>> >> -with-coon/>> >>> >>> > > >>> > > example service which uses coon >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >>> >>> > > >> > >>> > > >>> > > example library which uses coon >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >>> >>> > > >> > >>> > > >>> > > Hope you find this tool useful :) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> >>> >> > >>> > > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> > > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> >>> > > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> > > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Lo?c Hoguin >>> > https://ninenines.eu >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > erlang-questions mailing list >>> > erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> >>> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> > >>> >>> -- Lo?c Hoguin >>> https://ninenines.eu >>> >>> >>> -- Lo?c Hoguin >>> >>> https://ninenines.eu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> With best regards, >>> Roman Galeev, >>> +420 702 817 968 >>> >> >> -- >> Lo?c Hoguin >> https://ninenines.eu >> > > > > -- > With best regards, > Roman Galeev, > +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jordanchaitin@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 17:58:19 2018 From: jordanchaitin@REDACTED (Jordan Chaitin) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 22:28:19 +0530 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <42CDDAD6-3CF6-4143-B108-F66F7B4723BB@gmail.com> Not being from North America, I am (was) unaware of the connotations surrounding coon. But I?d like to share something related: while living in Europe, a friend wanted to set up a food stall and call it the SS Amsterdam. SS being the abbreviation for Sweets and Snacks, which is what the proposed stall would be selling. The name got shot down (on account of it reminding people of the Nazi SS) by everyone he presented to, including friends, colleagues, acquaintances, and investors. Ultimately he had to change the name. I won?t divulge whether or not he went ahead with a new name or dropped the whole thing. I thought the whole criticism was hypocritical and funny, because nobody seemed to have a problem with the SS Rotterdam, which is a popular former cruise ship and current hotel ship. Maybe it has to do with the fact that SS, as a naval abbreviation (for Steam Ship, or technically Steam Screw) predates the use by the Nazis, whereas the Nazis predate the hypothetical SS Amsterdam proposed by my friend. Going by that line of reasoning, Coon as a slur predates coon as a package manager, and hence takes precedence. Not that I agree with it. But it does seem to rile people up. Cheers > On Feb 12, 2018, at 20:41, Chris Waymire wrote: > > The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. > > Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning. > > Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons". > > > On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent. > > ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position. > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not > realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" > looks a > lot like a racist slur. > > People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is > important and there's no intent to slur here. > > On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called > in an > > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men > > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial > slurs, > > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: > > > > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people > outside > > of North America know about it. > > > > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly > fine > > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists > angry for > > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. > > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > > > > Most people will not think twice about it. > > > > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > I would like to introduce ?oon > - > > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy > deployment > > > Erlang packages. > > > In short: > > > > > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > > > , what reduces build time > > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for > > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service > > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed > > > with `coon install namespace/name` > > > > > > Documentation, articles and links: > > > > > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > > > see Readme.md and doc folder > > > > > > coon_auto_builder (server) - > > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > > > > > > > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > > > > > > > > > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > > > > > > https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > example service which uses coon > > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > > > > > > > > > example library which uses coon > > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > > > > > > > > > Hope you find this tool useful :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > erlang-questions mailing list > > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > erlang-questions mailing list > > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > -- > > Lo?c Hoguin > > https://ninenines.eu > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > -- Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From tsantero@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:10:20 2018 From: tsantero@REDACTED (Tom Santero) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:10:20 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd like to point about: 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my projects. lol security? 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several years now, and makes it relatively useless That said, the name: anyone in North America who reads this immediately thinks of the racist slur, despite intent or cultural differences. if you're an adult in 2018 and can't comprehend that being offended by something and that thing being objectively offensive aren't mutually exclusive then...well I'd suggest you take a good long time to reevaluate everything you've done with your life up until today. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen < jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > There is also "Maine Coon", which is a cat breed. > > Personally, I'd do two things: > > 1. I'm interested in the etymology of the word in > Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian etc and why that name was chosen in the first > place. > 2. I'd probably change the name. There is a well known proof assistant > named "Coq" (french for "Rooster"). Apart from snickers and giggles, one > has to make the case that a certain amount of internationality is to be > expected of library names. It simply creates more trouble than it solves. > > Of course, the balance is that an innocent western name might really upset > the asian population in a major asian country (China, India, Japan, ...), > and few people care about this. It is just that Americans tend to > self-immolate as soon as you mention their past. > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:52 PM Chris Duesing > wrote: > >> I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, >> there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans >> are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't >> offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh >> I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking >> ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only >> intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: >> >>> For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title >>> of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone >>> call a raccoon a coon. >>> >>> The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is >>> disappointing. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: >>> >>>> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I >>>> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that >>>> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. >>>> >>>> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he >>>> is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the >>>> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be >>>> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it >>>> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and >>>> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever >>>> they want in that name. >>>> >>>> That is 100% my point. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < >>>> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Fred Hebert writes: >>>>> >>>>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. >>>>> Picking >>>>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this >>>>> e-mail >>>>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures >>>>> may >>>>> > also reflect it. >>>>> >>>>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >>>>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >>>>> >>>>> ? raccoon; >>>>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >>>>> person. >>>>> >>>>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this >>>>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that >>>>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon >>>>> usage. >>>>> >>>>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also >>>>> racist meanings should be eventually abandoned? >>>>> >>>>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Catenacci@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:22:46 2018 From: Catenacci@REDACTED (Onorio Catenacci) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:22:46 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A few thoughts: 1.) As a native speaker of American English, trust me the word "coon" is extremely offensive. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but it's my impression that to African-Americans this word is almost as offensive as the N word is. I'm not a SJW and I'm not politically correct. I simply don't have any good reason to likely offend people when a less offensive term (like "Racoon") is easily available to use. If you don't speak American English natively, trust me this is not a case of someone being hypersensitive. It's a very offensive word. 2.) It looks like Valery simply decide to build Rebar3/Hex/Mix etc. with Python. That's perfectly fine. I'm not seeing anything much on there other than "we decided to rebuild rebar3 with python" and "we're going to build packages to work with our new build system" but it doesn't look as if they have yet. 3.) I also agree with Fred and others who say that all this discussion on the subtleties of political correctness and freedom of expression will get lost outside of this mailing list. All this would do is give a black eye to the Erlang community and convince people who don't know any better than some segment of developers who use Erlang are racists. Fair or not that's what will happen. Of course who ever said life is fair? I wish I had a better grasp of the native language of some folks on this list so I could express how offensive this particular word is to people who speak American English. Maybe if I said to Valery I were going to build a library named " ???" that might give some idea of how loaded with negative meaning the word "Coon" is in English. The fact that lots of Russian folks might find that particular phrase offensive--well they need to stop being so sensitive right? If you want to continue with this library, please simply change the name to "Racoon." This is not about offending or not offending anyone. Its about giving people the wrong impression by picking a name with a negative meaning in American English. Or if you insist on using "Coon" then use the word in whatever your native language is for "Racoon". I'll put it this way: I wouldn't name a library "Bitch". Yes, it refers to a female dog. But it's more commonly used as an offensive way to describe a female that one doesn't like. I also wouldn't name a library "Ass". That word can refer to a donkey but it's so overwhelmingly identified with a pejorative slang term that native speakers wouldn't think "donkey"--they'd think the other thing. -- Onorio Catenacci http://onor.io http://www.google.com/+OnorioCatenacci -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zxq9@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:28:47 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 02:28:47 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> On 2018?2?12???? 12?10?20? JST Tom Santero wrote: > Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd > like to point about: THANK YOU > 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my > projects. lol security? I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that involves external dependencies, the security is only as strong as the signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the signature. Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether source or pre-built) as repository inputs. > 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at > odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several > years now, and makes it relatively useless I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The common environment today is more like a (to use an awful term) "devops" environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way Python projects that use virtualenv can be. I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption "everything has to be an Erlang distribution". -Craig From jamhedd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:39:14 2018 From: jamhedd@REDACTED (Roman Galeev) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 18:39:14 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > how offensive this particular word is to people who speak American English. There are offensive words in Russian, and they even form a sublanguage named 'mat'. But you can't find something like this http://coonlabs.com/ with any of such words, this is simply not possible. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Onorio Catenacci wrote: > A few thoughts: > > 1.) As a native speaker of American English, trust me the word "coon" is > extremely offensive. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but it's my > impression that to African-Americans this word is almost as offensive as > the N word is. I'm not a SJW and I'm not politically correct. I simply > don't have any good reason to likely offend people when a less offensive > term (like "Racoon") is easily available to use. If you don't speak > American English natively, trust me this is not a case of someone being > hypersensitive. It's a very offensive word. > > 2.) It looks like Valery simply decide to build Rebar3/Hex/Mix etc. with > Python. That's perfectly fine. I'm not seeing anything much on there > other than "we decided to rebuild rebar3 with python" and "we're going to > build packages to work with our new build system" but it doesn't look as if > they have yet. > > 3.) I also agree with Fred and others who say that all this discussion on > the subtleties of political correctness and freedom of expression will get > lost outside of this mailing list. All this would do is give a black eye > to the Erlang community and convince people who don't know any better than > some segment of developers who use Erlang are racists. Fair or not that's > what will happen. Of course who ever said life is fair? > > I wish I had a better grasp of the native language of some folks on this > list so I could express how offensive this particular word is to people who > speak American English. Maybe if I said to Valery I were going to build a > library named " ???" that might give some idea of how loaded with > negative meaning the word "Coon" is in English. The fact that lots of > Russian folks might find that particular phrase offensive--well they need > to stop being so sensitive right? > > If you want to continue with this library, please simply change the name > to "Racoon." This is not about offending or not offending anyone. Its > about giving people the wrong impression by picking a name with a negative > meaning in American English. Or if you insist on using "Coon" then use the > word in whatever your native language is for "Racoon". > > I'll put it this way: I wouldn't name a library "Bitch". Yes, it refers > to a female dog. But it's more commonly used as an offensive way to > describe a female that one doesn't like. > > I also wouldn't name a library "Ass". That word can refer to a donkey but > it's so overwhelmingly identified with a pejorative slang term that native > speakers wouldn't think "donkey"--they'd think the other thing. > > -- > Onorio Catenacci > > http://onor.io > http://www.google.com/+OnorioCatenacci > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -- With best regards, Roman Galeev, +420 702 817 968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From k.petrauskas@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:47:05 2018 From: k.petrauskas@REDACTED (Karolis Petrauskas) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 19:47:05 +0200 Subject: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here you go: https://kurvasoft.com/ Karolis On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:39 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > > how offensive this particular word is to people who speak American > English. > > There are offensive words in Russian, and they even form a sublanguage > named 'mat'. But you can't find something like this http://coonlabs.com/ > > with any of such words, this is simply not possible. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Onorio Catenacci > wrote: > >> A few thoughts: >> >> 1.) As a native speaker of American English, trust me the word "coon" is >> extremely offensive. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but it's my >> impression that to African-Americans this word is almost as offensive as >> the N word is. I'm not a SJW and I'm not politically correct. I simply >> don't have any good reason to likely offend people when a less offensive >> term (like "Racoon") is easily available to use. If you don't speak >> American English natively, trust me this is not a case of someone being >> hypersensitive. It's a very offensive word. >> >> 2.) It looks like Valery simply decide to build Rebar3/Hex/Mix etc. with >> Python. That's perfectly fine. I'm not seeing anything much on there >> other than "we decided to rebuild rebar3 with python" and "we're going to >> build packages to work with our new build system" but it doesn't look as if >> they have yet. >> >> 3.) I also agree with Fred and others who say that all this discussion on >> the subtleties of political correctness and freedom of expression will get >> lost outside of this mailing list. All this would do is give a black eye >> to the Erlang community and convince people who don't know any better than >> some segment of developers who use Erlang are racists. Fair or not that's >> what will happen. Of course who ever said life is fair? >> >> I wish I had a better grasp of the native language of some folks on this >> list so I could express how offensive this particular word is to people who >> speak American English. Maybe if I said to Valery I were going to build a >> library named " ???" that might give some idea of how loaded with >> negative meaning the word "Coon" is in English. The fact that lots of >> Russian folks might find that particular phrase offensive--well they need >> to stop being so sensitive right? >> >> If you want to continue with this library, please simply change the name >> to "Racoon." This is not about offending or not offending anyone. Its >> about giving people the wrong impression by picking a name with a negative >> meaning in American English. Or if you insist on using "Coon" then use the >> word in whatever your native language is for "Racoon". >> >> I'll put it this way: I wouldn't name a library "Bitch". Yes, it refers >> to a female dog. But it's more commonly used as an offensive way to >> describe a female that one doesn't like. >> >> I also wouldn't name a library "Ass". That word can refer to a donkey but >> it's so overwhelmingly identified with a pejorative slang term that native >> speakers wouldn't think "donkey"--they'd think the other thing. >> >> -- >> Onorio Catenacci >> >> http://onor.io >> http://www.google.com/+OnorioCatenacci >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > > -- > With best regards, > Roman Galeev, > +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rpettit@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:47:26 2018 From: rpettit@REDACTED (Rick Pettit) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:47:26 -0600 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <391EF6A8-F1FC-45C8-B6C0-E90BF37EC2E1@vailsys.com> As someone who lives in North America, I wouldn?t be terribly excited about the idea of advocating for a piece of software with such a controversial name, to put it mildly. I have no doubt it would take more work defending the software and explaining the name than it would be to write my own package manager. I also cannot imagine what a ?hero? some of my coworkers (many of which I consider to be close friends) would consider me to be, enabling folks to casually throw out what many know to be a racial slur around the office without fear of consequences. Of course I could always throw the ?intent? argument out there, which would no doubt immediately clear up the optics and melt away all the negative feelings... Boy this better be one hell of a package manager to be worth all that trouble. -Rick > On Feb 12, 2018, at 8:04 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people outside of North America know about it. > > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly fine because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists angry for sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > > Most people will not think twice about it. > > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >> Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? >> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > wrote: >> Hi, >> I would like to introduce ?oon - >> build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment >> Erlang packages. >> In short: >> * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub >> , what reduces build time >> * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for >> Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo >> * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service >> from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed >> with `coon install namespace/name` >> Documentation, articles and links: >> coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon >> see Readme.md and doc folder >> coon_auto_builder (server) - >> https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder >> >> how to create and build Erlang service from scratch >> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ >> >> how to prepare Erlang service for deploy >> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ >> >> example service which uses coon >> https://github.com/comtihon/example_service >> >> example library which uses coon >> https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang >> >> Hope you find this tool useful :) >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > ---------- > > This email has been scanned for spam and viruses by Proofpoint Essentials. Visit the following link to report this email as spam: > https://us4.proofpointessentials.com/index01.php?mod_id=11&mod_option=logitem&mail_id=1518444255-EGmkz3btmH1c&r_address=rpettit%40vailsys.com&report= From alin.popa@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:49:03 2018 From: alin.popa@REDACTED (Alin Popa) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:49:03 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess that this guy needs to change his name to Josh Racoon now: http://coonlabs.com/about/team/josh-coon/ On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Karolis Petrauskas wrote: > Here you go: https://kurvasoft.com/ > > Karolis > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:39 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > >> > how offensive this particular word is to people who speak American >> English. >> >> There are offensive words in Russian, and they even form a sublanguage >> named 'mat'. But you can't find something like this http://coonlabs.com/ >> >> with any of such words, this is simply not possible. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Onorio Catenacci >> wrote: >> >>> A few thoughts: >>> >>> 1.) As a native speaker of American English, trust me the word "coon" is >>> extremely offensive. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but it's my >>> impression that to African-Americans this word is almost as offensive as >>> the N word is. I'm not a SJW and I'm not politically correct. I simply >>> don't have any good reason to likely offend people when a less offensive >>> term (like "Racoon") is easily available to use. If you don't speak >>> American English natively, trust me this is not a case of someone being >>> hypersensitive. It's a very offensive word. >>> >>> 2.) It looks like Valery simply decide to build Rebar3/Hex/Mix etc. with >>> Python. That's perfectly fine. I'm not seeing anything much on there >>> other than "we decided to rebuild rebar3 with python" and "we're going to >>> build packages to work with our new build system" but it doesn't look as if >>> they have yet. >>> >>> 3.) I also agree with Fred and others who say that all this discussion >>> on the subtleties of political correctness and freedom of expression will >>> get lost outside of this mailing list. All this would do is give a black >>> eye to the Erlang community and convince people who don't know any better >>> than some segment of developers who use Erlang are racists. Fair or not >>> that's what will happen. Of course who ever said life is fair? >>> >>> I wish I had a better grasp of the native language of some folks on this >>> list so I could express how offensive this particular word is to people who >>> speak American English. Maybe if I said to Valery I were going to build a >>> library named " ???" that might give some idea of how loaded with >>> negative meaning the word "Coon" is in English. The fact that lots of >>> Russian folks might find that particular phrase offensive--well they need >>> to stop being so sensitive right? >>> >>> If you want to continue with this library, please simply change the name >>> to "Racoon." This is not about offending or not offending anyone. Its >>> about giving people the wrong impression by picking a name with a negative >>> meaning in American English. Or if you insist on using "Coon" then use the >>> word in whatever your native language is for "Racoon". >>> >>> I'll put it this way: I wouldn't name a library "Bitch". Yes, it refers >>> to a female dog. But it's more commonly used as an offensive way to >>> describe a female that one doesn't like. >>> >>> I also wouldn't name a library "Ass". That word can refer to a donkey >>> but it's so overwhelmingly identified with a pejorative slang term that >>> native speakers wouldn't think "donkey"--they'd think the other thing. >>> >>> -- >>> Onorio Catenacci >>> >>> http://onor.io >>> http://www.google.com/+OnorioCatenacci >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> With best regards, >> Roman Galeev, >> +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zxq9@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:51:06 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 02:51:06 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1934168.LHJ86aeMaf@takoyaki> On 2018?2?12???? 19?47?05? JST Karolis Petrauskas wrote: > Here you go: https://kurvasoft.com/ WHOA! Now that one stuck out to ME as someone born in the U.S. who permanently resides in as East Asian a culture as one can possibly define. This is a very tricky rabbit hole. I'm going to name projects after random assemblies of numbers or characters or obscure color names from now on. -Craig From jamhedd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:56:50 2018 From: jamhedd@REDACTED (Roman Galeev) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 18:56:50 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > https://kurvasoft.com/ Well, kurva is Polish for bitch, and obviously, this Indonesian company do not do business in Poland :) On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM, Karolis Petrauskas wrote: > > Here you go: https://kurvasoft.com/ > > Karolis > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:39 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: >> >> > how offensive this particular word is to people who speak American English. >> >> There are offensive words in Russian, and they even form a sublanguage named 'mat'. But you can't find something like this http://coonlabs.com/ with any of such words, this is simply not possible. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Onorio Catenacci wrote: >>> >>> A few thoughts: >>> >>> 1.) As a native speaker of American English, trust me the word "coon" is extremely offensive. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but it's my impression that to African-Americans this word is almost as offensive as the N word is. I'm not a SJW and I'm not politically correct. I simply don't have any good reason to likely offend people when a less offensive term (like "Racoon") is easily available to use. If you don't speak American English natively, trust me this is not a case of someone being hypersensitive. It's a very offensive word. >>> >>> 2.) It looks like Valery simply decide to build Rebar3/Hex/Mix etc. with Python. That's perfectly fine. I'm not seeing anything much on there other than "we decided to rebuild rebar3 with python" and "we're going to build packages to work with our new build system" but it doesn't look as if they have yet. >>> >>> 3.) I also agree with Fred and others who say that all this discussion on the subtleties of political correctness and freedom of expression will get lost outside of this mailing list. All this would do is give a black eye to the Erlang community and convince people who don't know any better than some segment of developers who use Erlang are racists. Fair or not that's what will happen. Of course who ever said life is fair? >>> >>> I wish I had a better grasp of the native language of some folks on this list so I could express how offensive this particular word is to people who speak American English. Maybe if I said to Valery I were going to build a library named " ???" that might give some idea of how loaded with negative meaning the word "Coon" is in English. The fact that lots of Russian folks might find that particular phrase offensive--well they need to stop being so sensitive right? >>> >>> If you want to continue with this library, please simply change the name to "Racoon." This is not about offending or not offending anyone. Its about giving people the wrong impression by picking a name with a negative meaning in American English. Or if you insist on using "Coon" then use the word in whatever your native language is for "Racoon". >>> >>> I'll put it this way: I wouldn't name a library "Bitch". Yes, it refers to a female dog. But it's more commonly used as an offensive way to describe a female that one doesn't like. >>> >>> I also wouldn't name a library "Ass". That word can refer to a donkey but it's so overwhelmingly identified with a pejorative slang term that native speakers wouldn't think "donkey"--they'd think the other thing. >>> >>> -- >>> Onorio Catenacci >>> >>> http://onor.io >>> http://www.google.com/+OnorioCatenacci >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> With best regards, >> Roman Galeev, >> +420 702 817 968 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > -- With best regards, Roman Galeev, +420 702 817 968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erlang@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 18:58:12 2018 From: erlang@REDACTED (Joe Armstrong) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 18:58:12 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: Goodness - what a lot of mails. When choosing a name the following algorithm is used by many organisations and people 1) Choose a name 2) Check in all known languages if this might offend someone if it does goto 1) (There are even companies you can hire that do this, if it's a big product) If I wrote some software I would like it to be discussed for the right reasons, which are - it is useful - it is beautiful - it solves some interesting problem - it raises and solves some interesting problem I would not like it to be discussed for my skills in naming the damn code. I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. If you choose the wrong name you can accidentally offend people, even if this is not your intention - offending people has consequences. Cheers /Joe On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:28 PM, wrote: > On 2018?2?12???? 12?10?20? JST Tom Santero wrote: >> Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd >> like to point about: > > THANK YOU > >> 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my >> projects. lol security? > > I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that involves external dependencies, the security is only as strong as the signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the signature. > > Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether source or pre-built) as repository inputs. > >> 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at >> odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several >> years now, and makes it relatively useless > > I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The common environment today is more like a (to use an awful term) "devops" environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way Python projects that use virtualenv can be. > > I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption "everything has to be an Erlang distribution". > > -Craig > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From atill@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 19:00:12 2018 From: atill@REDACTED (Andy Till) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 18:00:12 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This term is absolutely a racist term and it is widely known in the UK and US. It was used in an awful BBC sitcom in the 60s and 70s. For people citing dictionaries, the racist meaning is the second most common. Surely that is enough? If the dictionary writer had been affected by it they may have put it first any way. Arguing that it negatively affects *only* a minority of people, is kind of the point of racism. I'd be mortified if I found that I had done misunderstood a name like this, and would take it down. On 12/02/2018 13:17, Fred Hebert wrote: > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > > wrote: > > Hi, > I would like to introduce ?oon > - build and dependency management system and tool for easy > deployment Erlang packages. > In short: > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > , what reduces build time > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds > for Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang > service from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang > installed with `coon install namespace/name` > > Documentation, articles and links: > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > see Readme.md and doc folder > > coon_auto_builder (server) - > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > > > example service which uses coon > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > > > example library which uses coon > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > > > Hope you find this tool useful :) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From essen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 19:02:59 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 19:02:59 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its > initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old conference > conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far Loic has not had > any fall out or enough offended people to make any change, and he did > build a successful business out of it. He made the call and ran with it. Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest movies, so the inspiration is fictional. Nobody has had any problem with it. -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From tsantero@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 19:10:24 2018 From: tsantero@REDACTED (Tom Santero) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:10:24 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if he's > wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its > >> initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old conference >> conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far Loic has not had any >> fall out or enough offended people to make any change, and he did build a >> successful business out of it. He made the call and ran with it. >> > > Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my > knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest movies, > so the inspiration is fictional. > > Nobody has had any problem with it. Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic. Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context, it is disappointing. > > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 19:10:59 2018 From: valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED (Valery Tikhonov) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 19:10:59 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my > projects. lol security? > 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at > odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several > years now, and makes it relatively useless 1. You can't push any built package to the server. You can only ask server to go to github, pull the sources and build the package. Security is the same as you will clone and build github repository. To gain better security - you can fork repo (that is why I use namespace/name in packages). To gain even better security - you can start your own build server and mention it as repository in the client's config. Server is started with one command `docker-compose up -d` - quite simple. 2. As you can see - my client uses rebar/erlang.mk and can resolve links from hex. I can't say it is 100% compatible, but it even can build package from rebar project. But the main reason of using python is - it has lots of plugins and modules. For now I use only Jinja2 templating in erlang configs, but theoretically we can use any plugin available in ansible. 2018-02-12 18:49 GMT+01:00 : > Send erlang-questions mailing list submissions to > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > erlang-questions-request@REDACTED > > You can reach the person managing the list at > erlang-questions-owner@REDACTED > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of erlang-questions digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Valery Tikhonov) > 2. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Jordan Chaitin) > 3. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Tom Santero) > 4. Re: erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 (Onorio Catenacci) > 5. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (zxq9@REDACTED) > 6. Re: erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 (Roman Galeev) > 7. Re: erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 > (Karolis Petrauskas) > 8. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Rick Pettit) > 9. Re: erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 5 (Alin Popa) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:59:50 +0100 > From: Valery Tikhonov > To: Roman Galeev > Cc: Erlang > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: > ZoEkhig@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Frankly speaking, I've expected another type of questions, when writing > announcement. > Again - I selected name `coon` because `raccoon` was occupied. That's all. > > Also I've always beleived that programmers are beyond the politics, sexism > and all kind of discriminations. So not using library, that can potentially > be useful is a little bit surprising for me. > > It's a pity, that today I can't fully use language to express what I would > like to. But to make everyone happy, I will create a wrapper around coon > for those who don't like coon name itself. > > P.S.: Just think - prohibiting words in the language will finally leave you > with empty vocabulary. > > > > 2018-02-12 16:25 GMT+01:00 Roman Galeev : > > > > denigrate protected groups > > > > I'm quite sure you can use any given word for that. > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > > >> That's the thing about identity politics, it's not all offensive words > >> that are bad, it's only those that can be used to denigrate protected > >> groups (regardless of intent or how old or local the meaning is). > >> > >> On 02/12/2018 04:18 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > >> > >>> Well, we have git already and nobody seems to be offended. > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Chris Waymire >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a > >>> racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of > >>> common social use for several decades would make people angry is > >>> ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the > >>> slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get > >>> past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your > >>> internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others > >>> using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will > >>> call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. > >>> > >>> Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make > >>> any reference about them or the US History, so there's no > intent > >>> here. He's using the other meaning. > >>> > >>> Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call > >>> racoons "coons". > >>> > >>> > >>> On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > >>> > >>> Intent IS important and the intent of the people who > applied > >>> this term to black people was a very bad intent. > >>> > >>> ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? > >>> this argument has been plastered all over American news for > >>> years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. > >>> This is the white supremesist position. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin > >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee > >>> brand racist not > >>> realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation > >>> for "black" > >>> looks a > >>> lot like a racist slur. > >>> > >>> People are getting offended much too easily these > days. > >>> Intent is > >>> important and there's no intent to slur here. > >>> > >>> On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > >>> > One would presume that all the black persons who > >>> have been called > >>> in an > >>> > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for > >>> sport by white men > >>> > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing > >>> about racial > >>> slurs, > >>> > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is > >>> hurt. > >>> > > >>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin > >>> > > >>> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too > >>> many people > >>> outside > >>> > of North America know about it. > >>> > > >>> > And secondly, should you censor a word that's > >>> otherwise perfectly > >>> fine > >>> > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical > >>> activists > >>> angry for > >>> > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a > good > >>> or a bad thing. > >>> > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > >>> > > >>> > Most people will not think twice about it. > >>> > > >>> > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > >>> > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with > that > >>> name? > >>> > > > >>> > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> > wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > Hi, > >>> > > I would like to introduce ?oon > >>> >>> > - > >>> > > build and dependency management system and tool > >>> for easy > >>> deployment > >>> > > Erlang packages. > >>> > > In short: > >>> > > > >>> > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > >>> > > , what reduces build > >>> time > >>> > > * thanks to github integration it allows to > >>> trigger new builds for > >>> > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > >>> > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and > run > >>> Erlang service > >>> > > from prebuilt package on system without > otp/Erlang > >>> installed > >>> > > with `coon install namespace/name` > >>> > > > >>> > > Documentation, articles and links: > >>> > > > >>> > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > >>> > >>> > > >>> > see Readme.md and doc > >>> folder > >>> > > > >>> > > coon_auto_builder (server) - > >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > how to create and build Erlang service from > scratch > >>> > > > >>> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/ > 07/create-erlang-service-with- > >>> coon/ > >>> with > >>> -coon/> > >>> > > > >>> >>> /07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > >>> with > >>> -coon/>> > >>> > > > >>> > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/ > 11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- > >>> with-coon/ > >>> deploy > >>> -with-coon/> > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> >>> /11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > >>> deploy > >>> -with-coon/>> > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > > example service which uses coon > >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > example library which uses coon > >>> > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > Hope you find this tool useful :) > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list > >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>> > >>> >>> > > >>> > > > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>> > >>> > > > >>> >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > >>> > > erlang-questions mailing list > >>> > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>> > >>> > > > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > Lo?c Hoguin > >>> > https://ninenines.eu > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > erlang-questions mailing list > >>> > erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>> > >>> > http://erlang.org/mailman/ > listinfo/erlang-questions > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> -- Lo?c Hoguin > >>> https://ninenines.eu > >>> > >>> > >>> -- Lo?c Hoguin > >>> > >>> https://ninenines.eu > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> erlang-questions mailing list > >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED erlang.org> > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> erlang-questions mailing list > >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> With best regards, > >>> Roman Galeev, > >>> +420 702 817 968 > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Lo?c Hoguin > >> https://ninenines.eu > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > With best regards, > > Roman Galeev, > > +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180212/3537f748/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 22:28:19 +0530 > From: Jordan Chaitin > To: Chris Waymire > Cc: Valery Tikhonov , Erlang > > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: <42CDDAD6-3CF6-4143-B108-F66F7B4723BB@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Not being from North America, I am (was) unaware of the connotations > surrounding coon. > > But I?d like to share something related: while living in Europe, a friend > wanted to set up a food stall and call it the SS Amsterdam. SS being the > abbreviation for Sweets and Snacks, which is what the proposed stall would > be selling. The name got shot down (on account of it reminding people of > the Nazi SS) by everyone he presented to, including friends, colleagues, > acquaintances, and investors. Ultimately he had to change the name. I won?t > divulge whether or not he went ahead with a new name or dropped the whole > thing. I thought the whole criticism was hypocritical and funny, because > nobody seemed to have a problem with the SS Rotterdam, which is a popular > former cruise ship and current hotel ship. Maybe it has to do with the fact > that SS, as a naval abbreviation (for Steam Ship, or technically Steam > Screw) predates the use by the Nazis, whereas the Nazis predate the > hypothetical SS Amsterdam proposed by my friend. Going by that line of > reasoning, Coon as a slur predates coon > as a package manager, and hence takes precedence. Not that I agree with > it. But it does seem to rile people up. > > Cheers > > > > > On Feb 12, 2018, at 20:41, Chris Waymire wrote: > > > > The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a > racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common > social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. > Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets > you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to > unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful > solitude. > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using > racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by > the next reply. Fingers crossed. > > > > Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any > reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's > using the other meaning. > > > > Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons > "coons". > > > > > > On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > > Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term > to black people was a very bad intent. > > > > ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument > has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a > privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position. > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > > > This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist > not > > realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" > > looks a > > lot like a racist slur. > > > > People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is > > important and there's no intent to slur here. > > > > On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > > > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called > > in an > > > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white > men > > > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial > > slurs, > > > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin > > wrote: > > > > > > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people > > outside > > > of North America know about it. > > > > > > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly > > fine > > > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists > > angry for > > > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad > thing. > > > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > > > > > > Most people will not think twice about it. > > > > > > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > > > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > > > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I would like to introduce ?oon > > - > > > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy > > deployment > > > > Erlang packages. > > > > In short: > > > > > > > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > > > > , what reduces build time > > > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds > for > > > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > > > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang > service > > > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed > > > > with `coon install namespace/name` > > > > > > > > Documentation, articles and links: > > > > > > > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > > > > see Readme.md and doc folder > > > > > > > > coon_auto_builder (server) - > > > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > > > > > > > > > > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > > > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with- > coon/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > > > > > > > > > https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- > with-coon/ > > > > > > > > > deploy-with-coon/> > > > > > > > > > > example service which uses coon > > > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > > > > > > > > > > > > example library which uses coon > > > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope you find this tool useful :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > erlang-questions mailing list > > > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > erlang-questions mailing list > > > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Lo?c Hoguin > > > https://ninenines.eu > > > _______________________________________________ > > > erlang-questions mailing list > > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > -- Lo?c Hoguin > > https://ninenines.eu > > > > > > -- > > Lo?c Hoguin > > > > https://ninenines.eu > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:10:20 -0500 > From: Tom Santero > To: Jesper Louis Andersen > Cc: Erlang > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: > 0VE8FOZwY-pGp0w@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd > like to point about: > > 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my > projects. lol security? > 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at > odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several > years now, and makes it relatively useless > > That said, the name: anyone in North America who reads this immediately > thinks of the racist slur, despite intent or cultural differences. if > you're an adult in 2018 and can't comprehend that being offended by > something and that thing being objectively offensive aren't mutually > exclusive then...well I'd suggest you take a good long time to reevaluate > everything you've done with your life up until today. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen < > jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > > > There is also "Maine Coon", which is a cat breed. > > > > Personally, I'd do two things: > > > > 1. I'm interested in the etymology of the word in > > Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian etc and why that name was chosen in the > first > > place. > > 2. I'd probably change the name. There is a well known proof assistant > > named "Coq" (french for "Rooster"). Apart from snickers and giggles, one > > has to make the case that a certain amount of internationality is to be > > expected of library names. It simply creates more trouble than it solves. > > > > Of course, the balance is that an innocent western name might really > upset > > the asian population in a major asian country (China, India, Japan, ...), > > and few people care about this. It is just that Americans tend to > > self-immolate as soon as you mention their past. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:52 PM Chris Duesing > > wrote: > > > >> I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, > >> there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white > Europeans > >> are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't > >> offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh > >> I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking > >> ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only > >> intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. > >> > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: > >> > >>> For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title > >>> of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard > anyone > >>> call a raccoon a coon. > >>> > >>> The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is > >>> disappointing. > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: > >>> > >>>> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I > >>>> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with > that > >>>> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. > >>>> > >>>> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he > >>>> is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't > need the > >>>> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be > >>>> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that > it > >>>> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go > ahead and > >>>> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read > whatever > >>>> they want in that name. > >>>> > >>>> That is 100% my point. > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < > >>>> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Fred Hebert writes: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. > >>>>> Picking > >>>>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as > this > >>>>> e-mail > >>>>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption > figures > >>>>> may > >>>>> > also reflect it. > >>>>> > >>>>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s > >>>>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of > ?coon?: > >>>>> > >>>>> ? raccoon; > >>>>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black > >>>>> person. > >>>>> > >>>>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this > >>>>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon > says that > >>>>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very > uncommon > >>>>> usage. > >>>>> > >>>>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also > >>>>> racist meanings should be eventually abandoned? > >>>>> > >>>>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> erlang-questions mailing list > >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> erlang-questions mailing list > >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> erlang-questions mailing list > >> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180212/27178887/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:22:46 -0500 > From: Onorio Catenacci > To: erlang-questions > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, > Issue 5 > Message-ID: > wOvpaQ@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > A few thoughts: > > 1.) As a native speaker of American English, trust me the word "coon" is > extremely offensive. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but it's my > impression that to African-Americans this word is almost as offensive as > the N word is. I'm not a SJW and I'm not politically correct. I simply > don't have any good reason to likely offend people when a less offensive > term (like "Racoon") is easily available to use. If you don't speak > American English natively, trust me this is not a case of someone being > hypersensitive. It's a very offensive word. > > 2.) It looks like Valery simply decide to build Rebar3/Hex/Mix etc. with > Python. That's perfectly fine. I'm not seeing anything much on there > other than "we decided to rebuild rebar3 with python" and "we're going to > build packages to work with our new build system" but it doesn't look as if > they have yet. > > 3.) I also agree with Fred and others who say that all this discussion on > the subtleties of political correctness and freedom of expression will get > lost outside of this mailing list. All this would do is give a black eye > to the Erlang community and convince people who don't know any better than > some segment of developers who use Erlang are racists. Fair or not that's > what will happen. Of course who ever said life is fair? > > I wish I had a better grasp of the native language of some folks on this > list so I could express how offensive this particular word is to people who > speak American English. Maybe if I said to Valery I were going to build a > library named " ???" that might give some idea of how loaded with negative > meaning the word "Coon" is in English. The fact that lots of Russian folks > might find that particular phrase offensive--well they need to stop being > so sensitive right? > > If you want to continue with this library, please simply change the name to > "Racoon." This is not about offending or not offending anyone. Its about > giving people the wrong impression by picking a name with a negative > meaning in American English. Or if you insist on using "Coon" then use the > word in whatever your native language is for "Racoon". > > I'll put it this way: I wouldn't name a library "Bitch". Yes, it refers to > a female dog. But it's more commonly used as an offensive way to describe > a female that one doesn't like. > > I also wouldn't name a library "Ass". That word can refer to a donkey but > it's so overwhelmingly identified with a pejorative slang term that native > speakers wouldn't think "donkey"--they'd think the other thing. > > -- > Onorio Catenacci > > http://onor.io > http://www.google.com/+OnorioCatenacci > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180212/4e893b05/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 02:28:47 +0900 > From: zxq9@REDACTED > To: erlang-questions@REDACTED > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On 2018?2?12???? 12?10?20? JST Tom Santero wrote: > > Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd > > like to point about: > > THANK YOU > > > 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my > > projects. lol security? > > I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I > prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, > for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that > involves external dependencies, the security is only as strong as the > signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature > scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the > signature. > > Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether > source or pre-built) as repository inputs. > > > 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is > at > > odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several > > years now, and makes it relatively useless > > I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the > common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built > piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The > common environment today is more like a (to use an awful term) "devops" > environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible > way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang > (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way > Python projects that use virtualenv can be. > > I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices > is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption > "everything has to be an Erlang distribution". > > -Craig > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 18:39:14 +0100 > From: Roman Galeev > To: Onorio Catenacci > Cc: erlang-questions > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, > Issue 5 > Message-ID: > griJ5g@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > how offensive this particular word is to people who speak American > English. > > There are offensive words in Russian, and they even form a sublanguage > named 'mat'. But you can't find something like this http://coonlabs.com/ > > with any of such words, this is simply not possible. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Onorio Catenacci > wrote: > > > A few thoughts: > > > > 1.) As a native speaker of American English, trust me the word "coon" is > > extremely offensive. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but it's my > > impression that to African-Americans this word is almost as offensive as > > the N word is. I'm not a SJW and I'm not politically correct. I simply > > don't have any good reason to likely offend people when a less offensive > > term (like "Racoon") is easily available to use. If you don't speak > > American English natively, trust me this is not a case of someone being > > hypersensitive. It's a very offensive word. > > > > 2.) It looks like Valery simply decide to build Rebar3/Hex/Mix etc. with > > Python. That's perfectly fine. I'm not seeing anything much on there > > other than "we decided to rebuild rebar3 with python" and "we're going to > > build packages to work with our new build system" but it doesn't look as > if > > they have yet. > > > > 3.) I also agree with Fred and others who say that all this discussion on > > the subtleties of political correctness and freedom of expression will > get > > lost outside of this mailing list. All this would do is give a black eye > > to the Erlang community and convince people who don't know any better > than > > some segment of developers who use Erlang are racists. Fair or not > that's > > what will happen. Of course who ever said life is fair? > > > > I wish I had a better grasp of the native language of some folks on this > > list so I could express how offensive this particular word is to people > who > > speak American English. Maybe if I said to Valery I were going to build > a > > library named " ???" that might give some idea of how loaded with > > negative meaning the word "Coon" is in English. The fact that lots of > > Russian folks might find that particular phrase offensive--well they need > > to stop being so sensitive right? > > > > If you want to continue with this library, please simply change the name > > to "Racoon." This is not about offending or not offending anyone. Its > > about giving people the wrong impression by picking a name with a > negative > > meaning in American English. Or if you insist on using "Coon" then use > the > > word in whatever your native language is for "Racoon". > > > > I'll put it this way: I wouldn't name a library "Bitch". Yes, it refers > > to a female dog. But it's more commonly used as an offensive way to > > describe a female that one doesn't like. > > > > I also wouldn't name a library "Ass". That word can refer to a donkey but > > it's so overwhelmingly identified with a pejorative slang term that > native > > speakers wouldn't think "donkey"--they'd think the other thing. > > > > -- > > Onorio Catenacci > > > > http://onor.io > > http://www.google.com/+OnorioCatenacci > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > -- > With best regards, > Roman Galeev, > +420 702 817 968 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180212/f19af5f1/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 19:47:05 +0200 > From: Karolis Petrauskas > To: Roman Galeev > Cc: Onorio Catenacci , erlang-questions > > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, > Issue 5 > Message-ID: > 8ajoGOgqA@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Here you go: https://kurvasoft.com/ > > Karolis > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:39 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > > > > how offensive this particular word is to people who speak American > > English. > > > > There are offensive words in Russian, and they even form a sublanguage > > named 'mat'. But you can't find something like this http://coonlabs.com/ > > > > > with any of such words, this is simply not possible. > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Onorio Catenacci > > wrote: > > > >> A few thoughts: > >> > >> 1.) As a native speaker of American English, trust me the word "coon" is > >> extremely offensive. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but it's my > >> impression that to African-Americans this word is almost as offensive as > >> the N word is. I'm not a SJW and I'm not politically correct. I simply > >> don't have any good reason to likely offend people when a less offensive > >> term (like "Racoon") is easily available to use. If you don't speak > >> American English natively, trust me this is not a case of someone being > >> hypersensitive. It's a very offensive word. > >> > >> 2.) It looks like Valery simply decide to build Rebar3/Hex/Mix etc. with > >> Python. That's perfectly fine. I'm not seeing anything much on there > >> other than "we decided to rebuild rebar3 with python" and "we're going > to > >> build packages to work with our new build system" but it doesn't look > as if > >> they have yet. > >> > >> 3.) I also agree with Fred and others who say that all this discussion > on > >> the subtleties of political correctness and freedom of expression will > get > >> lost outside of this mailing list. All this would do is give a black > eye > >> to the Erlang community and convince people who don't know any better > than > >> some segment of developers who use Erlang are racists. Fair or not > that's > >> what will happen. Of course who ever said life is fair? > >> > >> I wish I had a better grasp of the native language of some folks on this > >> list so I could express how offensive this particular word is to people > who > >> speak American English. Maybe if I said to Valery I were going to > build a > >> library named " ???" that might give some idea of how loaded with > >> negative meaning the word "Coon" is in English. The fact that lots of > >> Russian folks might find that particular phrase offensive--well they > need > >> to stop being so sensitive right? > >> > >> If you want to continue with this library, please simply change the name > >> to "Racoon." This is not about offending or not offending anyone. Its > >> about giving people the wrong impression by picking a name with a > negative > >> meaning in American English. Or if you insist on using "Coon" then use > the > >> word in whatever your native language is for "Racoon". > >> > >> I'll put it this way: I wouldn't name a library "Bitch". Yes, it refers > >> to a female dog. But it's more commonly used as an offensive way to > >> describe a female that one doesn't like. > >> > >> I also wouldn't name a library "Ass". That word can refer to a donkey > but > >> it's so overwhelmingly identified with a pejorative slang term that > native > >> speakers wouldn't think "donkey"--they'd think the other thing. > >> > >> -- > >> Onorio Catenacci > >> > >> http://onor.io > >> http://www.google.com/+OnorioCatenacci > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> erlang-questions mailing list > >> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > With best regards, > > Roman Galeev, > > +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180212/ec3651bd/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:47:26 -0600 > From: Rick Pettit > To: Lo?c Hoguin > Cc: Valery Tikhonov , Vance Shipley > > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: <391EF6A8-F1FC-45C8-B6C0-E90BF37EC2E1@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > As someone who lives in North America, I wouldn?t be terribly excited > about the idea of advocating for a piece of software with such a > controversial name, to put it mildly. > > I have no doubt it would take more work defending the software and > explaining the name than it would be to write my own package manager. > > I also cannot imagine what a ?hero? some of my coworkers (many of which I > consider to be close friends) would consider me to be, enabling folks to > casually throw out what many know to be a racial slur around the office > without fear of consequences. > > Of course I could always throw the ?intent? argument out there, which > would no doubt immediately clear up the optics and melt away all the > negative feelings... > > Boy this better be one hell of a package manager to be worth all that > trouble. > > -Rick > > > On Feb 12, 2018, at 8:04 AM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > > > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people outside > of North America know about it. > > > > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly fine > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists angry for > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > > > > Most people will not think twice about it. > > > > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > >> Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > >> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov < > valerii.tikhonov@REDACTED > wrote: > >> Hi, > >> I would like to introduce ?oon - > >> build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment > >> Erlang packages. > >> In short: > >> * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > >> , what reduces build time > >> * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for > >> Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > >> * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service > >> from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed > >> with `coon install namespace/name` > >> Documentation, articles and links: > >> coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > >> see Readme.md and doc folder > >> coon_auto_builder (server) - > >> https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > >> > >> how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > >> https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > >> > >> how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > >> https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy- > with-coon/ > >> deploy-with-coon/> > >> example service which uses coon > >> https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > >> > >> example library which uses coon > >> https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > >> > >> Hope you find this tool useful :) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> erlang-questions mailing list > >> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> erlang-questions mailing list > >> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > -- > > Lo?c Hoguin > > https://ninenines.eu > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > ---------- > > > > This email has been scanned for spam and viruses by Proofpoint > Essentials. Visit the following link to report this email as spam: > > https://us4.proofpointessentials.com/index01.php?mod_id=11&mod_ > option=logitem&mail_id=1518444255-EGmkz3btmH1c&r_ > address=rpettit%40vailsys.com&report= > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:49:03 +0000 > From: Alin Popa > To: Karolis Petrauskas > Cc: Onorio Catenacci , erlang-questions > > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, > Issue 5 > Message-ID: > A@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I guess that this guy needs to change his name to Josh Racoon now: > http://coonlabs.com/about/team/josh-coon/ > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:47 PM, Karolis Petrauskas < > k.petrauskas@REDACTED> > wrote: > > > Here you go: https://kurvasoft.com/ > > > > Karolis > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:39 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > > > >> > how offensive this particular word is to people who speak American > >> English. > >> > >> There are offensive words in Russian, and they even form a sublanguage > >> named 'mat'. But you can't find something like this > http://coonlabs.com/ > >> GEcpm9pL4x4ePNgwJw0H> > >> with any of such words, this is simply not possible. > >> > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Onorio Catenacci > >> wrote: > >> > >>> A few thoughts: > >>> > >>> 1.) As a native speaker of American English, trust me the word "coon" > is > >>> extremely offensive. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but it's my > >>> impression that to African-Americans this word is almost as offensive > as > >>> the N word is. I'm not a SJW and I'm not politically correct. I simply > >>> don't have any good reason to likely offend people when a less > offensive > >>> term (like "Racoon") is easily available to use. If you don't speak > >>> American English natively, trust me this is not a case of someone being > >>> hypersensitive. It's a very offensive word. > >>> > >>> 2.) It looks like Valery simply decide to build Rebar3/Hex/Mix etc. > with > >>> Python. That's perfectly fine. I'm not seeing anything much on there > >>> other than "we decided to rebuild rebar3 with python" and "we're going > to > >>> build packages to work with our new build system" but it doesn't look > as if > >>> they have yet. > >>> > >>> 3.) I also agree with Fred and others who say that all this discussion > >>> on the subtleties of political correctness and freedom of expression > will > >>> get lost outside of this mailing list. All this would do is give a > black > >>> eye to the Erlang community and convince people who don't know any > better > >>> than some segment of developers who use Erlang are racists. Fair or > not > >>> that's what will happen. Of course who ever said life is fair? > >>> > >>> I wish I had a better grasp of the native language of some folks on > this > >>> list so I could express how offensive this particular word is to > people who > >>> speak American English. Maybe if I said to Valery I were going to > build a > >>> library named " ???" that might give some idea of how loaded with > >>> negative meaning the word "Coon" is in English. The fact that lots of > >>> Russian folks might find that particular phrase offensive--well they > need > >>> to stop being so sensitive right? > >>> > >>> If you want to continue with this library, please simply change the > name > >>> to "Racoon." This is not about offending or not offending anyone. Its > >>> about giving people the wrong impression by picking a name with a > negative > >>> meaning in American English. Or if you insist on using "Coon" then use > the > >>> word in whatever your native language is for "Racoon". > >>> > >>> I'll put it this way: I wouldn't name a library "Bitch". Yes, it > refers > >>> to a female dog. But it's more commonly used as an offensive way to > >>> describe a female that one doesn't like. > >>> > >>> I also wouldn't name a library "Ass". That word can refer to a donkey > >>> but it's so overwhelmingly identified with a pejorative slang term that > >>> native speakers wouldn't think "donkey"--they'd think the other thing. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Onorio Catenacci > >>> > >>> http://onor.io > >>> http://www.google.com/+OnorioCatenacci > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> erlang-questions mailing list > >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> With best regards, > >> Roman Galeev, > >> +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> erlang-questions mailing list > >> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180212/1976adf6/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > End of erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 7 > ************************************************ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From charleshixsn@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 19:26:02 2018 From: charleshixsn@REDACTED (Charles Hixson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:26:02 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <429f5635-e055-c12f-3dfb-6639c3e8cc38@ninenines.eu> <01689eec-32e7-a793-aad1-10e7280a626c@ninenines.eu> <83f45678-2bf8-427e-a31d-c363fb8a0bb1@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <20a008a2-97cf-b08d-8b3d-48ba5d4ee519@earthlink.net> I'm sorry, but "coon" was definitely a pejorative term during *my* childhood.? I'm not a part of the affected group, but it is certainly one of the strongly associated meanings that attach to it in my mind.? Use a word meaning the same animal from a different language.?? Or spell out the name in full.? Or name it after someone's pet raccoon.? Or just change it.? There's no downside to changing it, and there is a downside to keeping it.? I don't know how strong a downside, but it's better to avoid any. On 02/12/2018 07:11 AM, Chris Waymire wrote: > The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a > racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common > social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. > Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that > upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is > time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life > of peaceful solitude. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: > > This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others > using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will > call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. > > Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any > reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. > He's using the other meaning. > > Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call > racoons "coons". > > > On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > > Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied > this term to black people was a very bad intent. > > ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? > this argument has been plastered all over American news for > years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. > This is the white supremesist position. > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin > > wrote: > > ? ? This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee > brand racist not > ? ? realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for > "black" > ? ? looks a > ? ? lot like a racist slur. > > ? ? People are getting offended much too easily these days. > Intent is > ? ? important and there's no intent to slur here. > > ? ? On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > ? ? ?> One would presume that all the black persons who have > been called > ? ? in an > ? ? ?> effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport > by white men > ? ? ?> with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about > racial > ? ? slurs, > ? ? ?> not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin > > > ? ? wrote: > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too > many people > ? ? outside > ? ? ?> of North America know about it. > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise > perfectly > ? ? fine > ? ? ?> because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical > activists > ? ? angry for > ? ? ?> sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or > a bad thing. > ? ? ?> Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> Most people will not think twice about it. > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > ? ? ?> > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > ? ? ?> > > >> > ? ? ?> wrote: > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > Hi, > ? ? ?> > I would like to introduce ?oon > ? ? > - > ? ? ?> > build and dependency management system and tool for easy > ? ? deployment > ? ? ?> > Erlang packages. > ? ? ?> > In short: > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > ? ? ?> > , what reduces build time > ? ? ?> > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger > new builds for > ? ? ?> > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > ? ? ?> > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run > Erlang service > ? ? ?> > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang > installed > ? ? ?> > with `coon install namespace/name` > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > Documentation, articles and links: > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > > ? ? ?> > > see Readme.md and doc folder > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > coon_auto_builder (server) - > ? ? ?> > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > ? ? ?> > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > ? ? ?> > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > ? ? > > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > example service which uses coon > ? ? ?> > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > > ? ? ?> > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > example library which uses coon > ? ? ?> > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > > ? ? ?> > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > Hope you find this tool useful :) > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > _______________________________________________ > ? ? ?> > erlang-questions mailing list > ? ? ?> > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > > ? ? ?> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > ? ? ?> > > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > _______________________________________________ > ? ? ?> > erlang-questions mailing list > ? ? ?> > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > ? ? ?> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? ?> > ? ? ?> -- > ? ? ?> Lo?c Hoguin > ? ? ?> https://ninenines.eu > ? ? ?> _______________________________________________ > ? ? ?> erlang-questions mailing list > ? ? ?> erlang-questions@REDACTED > > ? ? ?> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > ? ? ?> > > ? ? --? ? ?Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From charleshixsn@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 19:38:04 2018 From: charleshixsn@REDACTED (Charles Hixson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:38:04 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> <1518452194.3291870.1268120784.46BB66BD@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1eb8b9c1-d2dc-9bd0-81b3-f76a993da6f2@earthlink.net> Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name.? I never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has retarded the success of the project significantly, and kept it out of at least two businesses that I know of.? Recently they've started altering the display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image Manipulation Program" on the startup screen.? That's what "The Gimp" always stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less blatant...because some people *were* offended, and because businesses didn't want to risk offending customers. I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well avoid mentioning it to others. On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote: > Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can?t believe there?s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I?d apologises and change it. Maybe that?s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no. > > If there?s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon. > > I need to use erlang for my work, please don?t stick with this name. I don?t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also? > > On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter wrote: > >> This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away. >> >> For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. >> >> -- >> Tristan Sloughter >> "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson >> t@REDACTED >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: >>> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: >>>> Intent does not matter. >>> No. >>> >>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with >>> you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own >>> part. On technical subjects, anyway. >>> >>> But... INTENT >>> >>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against >>> the weight of history. >>> >>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care >>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy >>> is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these >>> days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, >>> not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a >>> concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the >>> other parties we enjoy. >>> >>> Riddle me this: >>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE >>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we >>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value >>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software >>> systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart >>> mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"? >>> >>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound >>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly >>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up >>> eventualy going. >>> >>> -Craig >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trapexit@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 19:54:53 2018 From: trapexit@REDACTED (Antonio SJ Musumeci) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:54:53 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <1eb8b9c1-d2dc-9bd0-81b3-f76a993da6f2@earthlink.net> References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> <1518452194.3291870.1268120784.46BB66BD@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1eb8b9c1-d2dc-9bd0-81b3-f76a993da6f2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: "retarded" Poor word choice given the thread topic. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Charles Hixson wrote: > Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name. I > never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it > was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has > retarded the success of the project significantly, and kept it out of at > least two businesses that I know of. Recently they've started altering the > display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image > Manipulation Program" on the startup screen. That's what "The Gimp" always > stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less > blatant...because some people **were** offended, and because businesses > didn't want to risk offending customers. > > I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well > avoid mentioning it to others. > > On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote: > > Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can?t believe there?s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I?d apologises and change it. Maybe that?s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no. > > If there?s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon. > > I need to use erlang for my work, please don?t stick with this name. I don?t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also? > > On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter wrote: > > > This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away. > > For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. > > -- > Tristan Sloughter > "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson > t@REDACTED > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: > > On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: > > Intent does not matter. > > No. > > Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with > you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own > part. On technical subjects, anyway. > > But... INTENT > > You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against > the weight of history. > > This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care > about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy > is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these > days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, > not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a > concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the > other parties we enjoy. > > Riddle me this: > If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE > OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we > somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value > systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software > systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart > mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"? > > I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound > respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly > considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up > eventualy going. > > -Craig > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing listerlang-questions@REDACTED://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing listerlang-questions@REDACTED://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing listerlang-questions@REDACTED://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From charleshixsn@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 19:59:28 2018 From: charleshixsn@REDACTED (Charles Hixson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:59:28 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d39aa0d-e2ad-fa5a-c140-dc1382964883@earthlink.net> "Coon" is often used as a shortened name for the animal.? If you can definitely tell from context that that is what is meant, it isn't (usually) seen as a racial slur.? But you do need to know your audience.? If you don't, it's almost certain that a major fraction of them will consider the slur as a plausible meaning. And that's when the context implies that you mean "raccoon". On 02/12/2018 08:52 AM, Chris Duesing wrote: > I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, > there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white > Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this > thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the > mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended > by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this > isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx > wrote: > > For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the > title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never > heard anyone call a raccoon a coon. > > The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is > disappointing. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert > wrote: > > What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret > things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. > I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it. > > My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know > who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. > They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll > just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and > so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually > interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep > the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read > whatever they want in that name. > > That is 100% my point. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz > > wrote: > > Fred Hebert writes: > > > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever > they want. Picking > > a racist name is however never going to be > consequences-free as this e-mail > > thread first shows on the first day of release, and > adoption figures may > > also reflect it. > > Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as > ?America?s most-trusted online dictionary?) says that > there two meanings of ?coon?: > > ? raccoon; > ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term > for a black person. > > I presume that context matters. What makes you think that > in this context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the > article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially > as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage. > > Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that > have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned? > > (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual > ignorance). > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From charleshixsn@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 20:11:30 2018 From: charleshixsn@REDACTED (Charles Hixson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:11:30 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: <80335c59-764f-0e28-8877-2f16fa41001e@earthlink.net> Did you ever read how much Exxon paid to find a name that wasn't taken and wasn't objectionable?? Whee!? I was shocked.? (I couldn't find a link for it in a short Google search, and I don't remember the exact figure, but it was more than the cost of the most recently built college dorm.) But it's also true that it's important that a name be easily memorable, which lets out the SHA-1 choice...though that makes a good unique identifier. Picking a good name is hard.? But to me this doesn't seem a wise choice. On 02/12/2018 09:58 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote: > Goodness - what a lot of mails. > > When choosing a name the following algorithm is used by many > organisations and people > > 1) Choose a name > 2) Check in all known languages if this might offend someone > if it does goto 1) > > (There are even companies you can hire that do this, if it's a big product) > > If I wrote some software I would like it to be discussed for the right > reasons, which are > > - it is useful > - it is beautiful > - it solves some interesting problem > - it raises and solves some interesting problem > > I would not like it to be discussed for my skills in naming the damn code. > > I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of > the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart > from those who > thought the name could be a tad simpler. > > If you choose the wrong name you can accidentally offend people, even if this > is not your intention - offending people has consequences. > > Cheers > > /Joe > > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:28 PM, wrote: >> On 2018?2?12???? 12?10?20? JST Tom Santero wrote: >>> Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd >>> like to point about: >> THANK YOU >> >>> 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my >>> projects. lol security? >> I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that involves external dependencies, the security is only as strong as the signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the signature. >> >> Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether source or pre-built) as repository inputs. >> >>> 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at >>> odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several >>> years now, and makes it relatively useless >> I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The common environment today is more like a (to use an awful term) "devops" environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way Python projects that use virtualenv can be. >> >> I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption "everything has to be an Erlang distribution". >> >> -Craig >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From essen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 20:13:59 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 20:13:59 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: > > On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if > he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its > > initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old > conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far > Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make > any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He > made the call and ran with it. > > > Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my > knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest > movies, so the inspiration is fictional. > > Nobody has had any problem with it. > > > Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic. > Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming > context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted > under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context, > it is disappointing. If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products. Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too. I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today (Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially telling that it hadn't been translated to English for so long despite being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be. Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages. Culture changes fast enough that you might see otherwise normal words become slur within your lifetime. According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it, otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands. Still I don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories does not make me side with anyone in historical events. Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process for coming up with the name is irrelevant, just as the history behind a practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme. And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the others, I decided against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a native American tribe. Maybe later. Cheers, -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From stefan.strigler@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 21:05:33 2018 From: stefan.strigler@REDACTED (Stefan Strigler) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 20:05:33 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: There's a difference between making a mistake and refusing to learn from them once pointed out. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:14 PM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Lo?c Hoguin > > wrote: > > > > On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if > > he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its > > > > initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old > > conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far > > Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make > > any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He > > made the call and ran with it. > > > > > > Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my > > knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest > > movies, so the inspiration is fictional. > > > > Nobody has had any problem with it. > > > > > > Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic. > > Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming > > context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted > > under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context, > > it is disappointing. > > If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must > be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products. > Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too. > > I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy > comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today > (Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially > telling that it hadn't been translated to English for so long despite > being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who > enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be. > > Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same > applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know > all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages. > Culture changes fast enough that you might see otherwise normal words > become slur within your lifetime. > > According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates > with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped > because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it, > otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands. Still I > don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating > genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories > does not make me side with anyone in historical events. > > Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's > how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the > project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process > for coming up with the name is irrelevant, just as the history behind a > practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how > things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme. > > And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially > thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a > number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and > Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the others, I decided > against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a > native American tribe. Maybe later. > > Cheers, > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 21:06:35 2018 From: jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED (Jesper Louis Andersen) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 20:06:35 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: > > I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 > checksum of > the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart > from those who > thought the name could be a tad simpler. > > I might have said this before, but here goes: Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vladdu55@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 22:06:28 2018 From: vladdu55@REDACTED (Vlad Dumitrescu) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 22:06:28 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen < jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: > >> >> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 >> checksum of >> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart >> from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. >> >> > I might have said this before, but here goes: > Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to > the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As > in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 > months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why > it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > content-addressable-store for your packages. > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a package as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list of other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package is renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a reference points. Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is useful except for tools. best regards, Vlad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 22:35:26 2018 From: lloyd@REDACTED (Lloyd R. Prentice) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:35:26 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: <597D5FED-D8A3-4607-919B-B1F3BFDEE59E@writersglen.com> Hello, Jesper and Joe do make good sense to me. And, more, I would like to see much more informed debate on the technical merits of this new tool. As aside, however, I haven?t seen so much activity on this list since I first subscribed some four years ago. Note that we haven?t heard from any North American black Erlang programmers on this list. Why would that be? I?m a privileged, white (so far as I know from my spotty genealogy, although the recent work on the Chadwick man casts some doubt), provincial North American male. Some in my genetic/gender/national cohort feel that our group is being grievously discriminated against. I don?t happen to feel so for plenty of socio-economic reasons. Nevertheless, the name of this new tool did seem unfortunate in the extreme to me. Were my skin black, from everything I know, I would definitely feel a twinge of pain and resentment every time one of the many words used historically to define me as less than a respected human being was tossed around in casual conversation. But some on this list are correct. One can be overly sensitive and some groups do exploit these sensitivities for politely advantage. Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that naming of software packages in these times has many cross-cultural implications. For us, that is the Erlang community, the big question is how can we learn and grow together regardless of our respective cultural heritages? How can we minimize the contentious bickering and trolling that has infected so much discourse across the web? Tribalism is a reality in our world. Every tribe has its own taboos, sensitivities, and moral blind spots. But our world is ever more interconnected and interdependent. Empathy and respect for the feelings of others can go a long way toward reducing the friction of cross-cultural exchange. As can respectful discussion of differences. For me, this thread reinforces my belief in this principle. All the best, LRP Sent from my iPad > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: >> >> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of >> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart >> from those who >> thought the name could be a tad simpler. >> > > I might have said this before, but here goes: > > Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > > It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > > I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages. > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions Sent from my iPad > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: >> >> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of >> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart >> from those who >> thought the name could be a tad simpler. >> > > I might have said this before, but here goes: > > Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > > It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > > I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages. > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From therevoltingx@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 22:38:26 2018 From: therevoltingx@REDACTED (Miguel Morales) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:38:26 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <597D5FED-D8A3-4607-919B-B1F3BFDEE59E@writersglen.com> References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> <597D5FED-D8A3-4607-919B-B1F3BFDEE59E@writersglen.com> Message-ID: I'm a hispanic developer in North America. This name is certainly offensive. I'm a big proponent of free speech and am against overreaching social justice causes. However, in this case, if you want the project to succeed I highly recommend changing the name. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Lloyd R. Prentice wrote: > Hello, > > Jesper and Joe do make good sense to me. > > And, more, I would like to see much more informed debate on the technical > merits of this new tool. > > As aside, however, I haven?t seen so much activity on this list since I > first subscribed some four years ago. > > Note that we haven?t heard from any North American black Erlang > programmers on this list. Why would that be? > > I?m a privileged, white (so far as I know from my spotty genealogy, > although the recent work on the Chadwick man casts some doubt), provincial > North American male. > > Some in my genetic/gender/national cohort feel that our group is being > grievously discriminated against. I don?t happen to feel so for plenty of > socio-economic reasons. > > Nevertheless, the name of this new tool did seem unfortunate in the > extreme to me. Were my skin black, from everything I know, I would > definitely feel a twinge of pain and resentment every time one of the many > words used historically to define me as less than a respected human being > was tossed around in casual conversation. > > But some on this list are correct. One can be overly sensitive and some > groups do exploit these sensitivities for politely advantage. > > Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that naming of software packages in > these times has many cross-cultural implications. > > For us, that is the Erlang community, the big question is how can we learn > and grow together regardless of our respective cultural heritages? How can > we minimize the contentious bickering and trolling that has infected so > much discourse across the web? > > Tribalism is a reality in our world. Every tribe has its own taboos, > sensitivities, and moral blind spots. > > But our world is ever more interconnected and interdependent. Empathy and > respect for the feelings of others can go a long way toward reducing the > friction of cross-cultural exchange. As can respectful discussion of > differences. > > For me, this thread reinforces my belief in this principle. > > All the best, > > LRP > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen < > jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: > >> >> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 >> checksum of >> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart >> from those who >> thought the name could be a tad simpler. >> >> > I might have said this before, but here goes: > > Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to > the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > > It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As > in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 > months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > > I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why > it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > content-addressable-store for your packages. > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen < > jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: > >> >> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 >> checksum of >> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart >> from those who >> thought the name could be a tad simpler. >> >> > I might have said this before, but here goes: > > Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to > the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > > It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As > in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 > months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > > I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why > it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > content-addressable-store for your packages. > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erlang@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 22:58:01 2018 From: erlang@REDACTED (Joe Armstrong) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 22:58:01 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen > wrote: >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 >>> checksum of >>> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart >>> from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. >>> >> >> I might have said this before, but here goes: >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a >> content-addressable-store for your packages. > > > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a package > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list of > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package is > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a > reference points. The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of names - this list of checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package). A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different human readable names are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum. Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly obvious reasons of convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or appropriate. For a given content the checksum is unique. To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of the checksum over time Should be easy (Famous last words rule applies here) Cheers /Joe > > Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is > stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is > useful except for tools. > > best regards, > Vlad > From vladdu55@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 23:36:37 2018 From: vladdu55@REDACTED (Vlad Dumitrescu) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 23:36:37 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:58 PM, Joe Armstrong wrote: > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu > wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen > > wrote: > >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name > to > >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > headaches > >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. > As > >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 > >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why > >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > >> content-addressable-store for your packages. > > > > > > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a > package > > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list > of > > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names > > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package > is > > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a > > reference points. > > The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of > names - this list of > checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package). > > A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different > human readable names > are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum. > > Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly > obvious reasons of > convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or > appropriate. > > For a given content the checksum is unique. > > To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of > > {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of > the checksum over time > Thanks for the explanation, I understand the mechanics, but not the "real world usage". * A checksum referes to a {package_name, time} tuple, so there is no way to refer to the package in general. Except by its name. * Even if there was, nobody is going to say "For a gizmo processing library, we have to choose between B17556DB683000BA50370B16C0619DF1337E7AF7ECBF7D64FBF8D1D6BCE3109B and 7ACC7D785B5ABE8A6E9ADBDE926A24E481F29956DD8B4DF49E3E4E7BCC92A018, which one is better?" So people will use names. * Now the project is presumably configured in a file, written by a programmer - again the name will be used. The hash can be retrieved and stored by the build tool, so that we get a hard reference... * ... which is exactly what rebar and mix do with hex.pm (if I get it right), except they use the version string instead of timestamp. So if hex.pm keeps track of timestamps and of historical mappings between names and hashes, then it's done! * However, the imprecision of using names remains because we're humans. Tools already use hashes. Am I misunderstanding something? best regards, Vlad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric.des.courtis@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 23:55:29 2018 From: eric.des.courtis@REDACTED (Eric des Courtis) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:55:29 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: Everyone, stop acting like a bunch of Java programmers and get back to work! On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Joe Armstrong wrote: > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen > > wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 > >>> checksum of > >>> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart > >>> from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. > >>> > >> > >> I might have said this before, but here goes: > >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name > to > >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > headaches > >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. > As > >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 > >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why > >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > >> content-addressable-store for your packages. > > > > > > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a > package > > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list > of > > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names > > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package > is > > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a > > reference points. > > The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of > names - this list of > checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package). > > A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different > human readable names > are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum. > > Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly > obvious reasons of > convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or > appropriate. > > For a given content the checksum is unique. > > To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of > > {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of > the checksum over time > > Should be easy (Famous last words rule applies here) > > Cheers > > /Joe > > > > > > > > Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is > > stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is > > useful except for tools. > > > > best regards, > > Vlad > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mahesh@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 00:51:32 2018 From: mahesh@REDACTED (Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 05:21:32 +0530 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, *depending on the reach* - what might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have ADL database auto-completing in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far. Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you *want* to appeal to racists and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in quite a bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, and someone points out to you that your choice of words may not be the wisest choice, well, you might want to reconsider it (?). Note that the point here isn't "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, and thats about all that matters - remember, this is about the marketing aspects of naming. Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask yourself how they might feel about your actions. Not how they *should* feel, but how they might *actually* feel. Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been a *long* while - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from that upbringing has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the receiving end of stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, casual and explicit racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that privilege. It's not an explicit thing - it's having been part of an entire culture where being brahmin means I'm better than *those people*. Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, money, in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, and working cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, and the last thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix. Cheers (?) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did not know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans - and about the only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist faux-westerns by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to my graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid) discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but Fred > speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, or > could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present). Maybe > the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know? > And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild > already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of > these people? > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin wrote: > >> I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through >> something like this in a different context and I have to say "its not >> reasonable that is offended" is a pretty bad apology. >> ? >> >> Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software >> I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics >> +972 54 234 3956 <+972%2054-234-3956> / +44 203 734 9790 >> <+44%2020%203734%209790> / +1 617 778 7213 <(617)%20778-7213> >> Book a meeting with me >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, wrote: >>> >>>> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: >>>> > Intent does not matter. >>>> >>>> No. >>>> >>>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with >>>> you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own >>>> part. On technical subjects, anyway. >>>> >>>> But... INTENT >>>> >>>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against >>>> the weight of history. >>>> >>> >>> I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god >>> damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this >>> kind of shit offensive. >>> >>> I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine >>> with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time >>> with both professionally and personally. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care >>>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is >>>> not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. >>>> That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just >>>> in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete >>>> socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other >>>> parties we enjoy. >>>> >>> >>> I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very >>> reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*. >>> >>> Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban >>> Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms: >>> >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon >>> Insulting term for a black person >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo >>> An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the >>> meaning of the picture. Usually found in captions. >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat >>> The definitive pet. >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog >>> Not a cat >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox >>> A beautiful and attractive woman >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale >>> noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by a >>> casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more money. >>> >>> Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one. >>> >>> *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib is >>> racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original intent, >>> the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. Look >>> this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of the >>> author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author): >>> >>> In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism >>>> that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their political views, >>>> historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical >>>> or personal attributes?to distill meaning from the author's work. In this >>>> type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a >>>> definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading >>>> may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: >>>> "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding >>>> interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text". >>>> >>>> [...] >>>> >>>> In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and >>>> textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", >>>> drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, >>>> individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the >>>> impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the >>>> writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in >>>> its destination", or its audience. >>>> >>> >>> The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be >>> around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends >>> is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away >>> from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and >>> enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you >>> are attempting to criticize. >>> >>> Intent does not matter. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Riddle me this: >>>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE >>>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we >>>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value >>>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) >>>> that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this >>>> all brought back to a "reasonble default"? >>>> >>>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound >>>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly >>>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up >>>> eventualy going. >>>> >>> >>> I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in this >>> context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that *raccoon* >>> was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people >>> will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd >>> and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single >>> person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the >>> losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. What >>> I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much >>> windmill tilting you'll get into. >>> >>> If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it >>> crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail >>> early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct >>> corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass >>> project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to >>> handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this >>> way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW >>> Flippancy.* Loic brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make a >>> tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any >>> difference the moment this gets out of here. >>> >>> If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking >>> place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign >>> to you? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > > -- > With best regards, > Roman Galeev, > +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -- *Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya That tall bald Indian guy..* *Twitter | Blog | G+ | LinkedIn * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefan.strigler@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:25:05 2018 From: stefan.strigler@REDACTED (Stefan Strigler) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:25:05 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: +1 Mahesh, you're the best, thanks for taking that effort! On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:51 AM Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya < mahesh@REDACTED> wrote: > Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is > perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, *depending on the reach* - what > might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San > Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have ADL > database > auto-completing > in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far. > > Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you *want* to appeal to racists > and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in quite a > bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, and someone > points out to you that your choice of words may not be the wisest choice, > well, you might want to reconsider it (?). Note that the point here isn't > "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, and thats about all > that matters - remember, this is about the marketing aspects of naming. > > Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask yourself > how they might feel about your actions. Not how they *should* feel, but > how they might *actually* feel. > > Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been a *long* while > - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from that upbringing > has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the receiving end of > stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, casual and explicit > racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that privilege. It's not an > explicit thing - it's having been part of an entire culture where being > brahmin means I'm better than *those people*. > > Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, money, > in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, and working > cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, and the last > thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix. > > Cheers > > (?) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly > disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did not > know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans - and about the > only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist faux-westerns > by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to my > graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid) > discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't. > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > >> The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but >> Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could >> they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not >> present). Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well, >> how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in >> the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the >> council of these people? >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin >> wrote: >> >>> I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through something like this in a different context and I have to say >>> "its not reasonable that is offended" is a pretty bad apology. >>> ? >>> >>> Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software >>> I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics >>> +972 54 234 3956 <+972%2054-234-3956> / +44 203 734 9790 >>> <+44%2020%203734%209790> / +1 617 778 7213 <(617)%20778-7213> >>> Book a meeting with me >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: >>>>> > Intent does not matter. >>>>> >>>>> No. >>>>> >>>>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds >>>>> with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own >>>>> part. On technical subjects, anyway. >>>>> >>>>> But... INTENT >>>>> >>>>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against >>>>> the weight of history. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god >>>> damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this >>>> kind of shit offensive. >>>> >>>> I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine >>>> with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time >>>> with both professionally and personally. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care >>>>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is >>>>> not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. >>>>> That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just >>>>> in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete >>>>> socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other >>>>> parties we enjoy. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very >>>> reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*. >>>> >>>> Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban >>>> Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms: >>>> >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon >>>> Insulting term for a black person >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo >>>> An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the >>>> meaning of the picture. Usually found in captions. >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat >>>> The definitive pet. >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog >>>> Not a cat >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox >>>> A beautiful and attractive woman >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale >>>> noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by >>>> a casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more money. >>>> >>>> Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one. >>>> >>>> *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib >>>> is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original >>>> intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. >>>> Look this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of >>>> the author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author): >>>> >>>> In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and >>>>> criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their political >>>>> views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other >>>>> biographical or personal attributes?to distill meaning from the author's >>>>> work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author >>>>> serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method >>>>> of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and >>>>> flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding >>>>> interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text". >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and >>>>> textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations", >>>>> drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, >>>>> individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the >>>>> impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the >>>>> writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in >>>>> its destination", or its audience. >>>>> >>>> >>>> The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be >>>> around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends >>>> is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away >>>> from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and >>>> enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you >>>> are attempting to criticize. >>>> >>>> Intent does not matter. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Riddle me this: >>>>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE >>>>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we >>>>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value >>>>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) >>>>> that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this >>>>> all brought back to a "reasonble default"? >>>>> >>>>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound >>>>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly >>>>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up >>>>> eventualy going. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in >>>> this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that >>>> *raccoon* was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that >>>> other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is >>>> downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining >>>> every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have >>>> taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die >>>> on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how >>>> much windmill tilting you'll get into. >>>> >>>> If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it >>>> crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail >>>> early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct >>>> corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass >>>> project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to >>>> handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this >>>> way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW >>>> Flippancy.* Loic brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make >>>> a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any >>>> difference the moment this gets out of here. >>>> >>>> If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking >>>> place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign >>>> to you? >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> With best regards, >> Roman Galeev, >> +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > > > -- > > *Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya > That > tall bald Indian guy..* > *Twitter | Blog > | G+ > | LinkedIn > * > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sashang@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:34:33 2018 From: sashang@REDACTED (Sashan Govender) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:34:33 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:18 AM Fred Hebert wrote: > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > > A type of cheese? http://www.coon.com.au/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefan.strigler@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:38:20 2018 From: stefan.strigler@REDACTED (Stefan Strigler) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:38:20 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:01 PM Jesper Louis Andersen < jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > There is also "Maine Coon", which is a cat breed. > And there is also me who thinks you CAN NOT be serious. I mean seriously WTF? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sashang@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:41:48 2018 From: sashang@REDACTED (Sashan Govender) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:41:48 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think you just need to tolerate different cultures better. A word that is deemed racist in one culture isn't the same in another. There are many other uses for coon. Maine Coon is a type of cat. Coon is type of cheese in Australia. Go on - tell all of Australia to stop eating coon. Next you'll be telling me to rethink the use of the work 'monkey' or 'gorrilla' for a library. Where does it end? On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 3:52 AM Chris Duesing wrote: > I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, > there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans > are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't > offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh > I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking > ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only > intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: > >> For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of >> this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call >> a raccoon a coon. >> >> The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is >> disappointing. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: >> >>> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I >>> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that >>> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. >>> >>> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he >>> is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the >>> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be >>> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it >>> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and >>> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever >>> they want in that name. >>> >>> That is 100% my point. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < >>> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: >>> >>>> Fred Hebert writes: >>>> >>>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. >>>> Picking >>>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this >>>> e-mail >>>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures >>>> may >>>> > also reflect it. >>>> >>>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >>>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >>>> >>>> ? raccoon; >>>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >>>> person. >>>> >>>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this >>>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that >>>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon >>>> usage. >>>> >>>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist >>>> meanings should be eventually abandoned? >>>> >>>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> >> > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefan.strigler@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:43:00 2018 From: stefan.strigler@REDACTED (Stefan Strigler) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:43:00 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah, fuck you! On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:42 AM Sashan Govender wrote: > I think you just need to tolerate different cultures better. A word that > is deemed racist in one culture isn't the same in another. > > There are many other uses for coon. > Maine Coon is a type of cat. > Coon is type of cheese in Australia. Go on - tell all of Australia to stop > eating coon. > > Next you'll be telling me to rethink the use of the work 'monkey' or > 'gorrilla' for a library. Where does it end? > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 3:52 AM Chris Duesing > wrote: > >> I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, >> there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans >> are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't >> offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh >> I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking >> ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only >> intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: >> >>> For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title >>> of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone >>> call a raccoon a coon. >>> >>> The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is >>> disappointing. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: >>> >>>> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I >>>> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that >>>> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. >>>> >>>> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he >>>> is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the >>>> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be >>>> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it >>>> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and >>>> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever >>>> they want in that name. >>>> >>>> That is 100% my point. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < >>>> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Fred Hebert writes: >>>>> >>>>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. >>>>> Picking >>>>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this >>>>> e-mail >>>>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures >>>>> may >>>>> > also reflect it. >>>>> >>>>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >>>>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >>>>> >>>>> ? raccoon; >>>>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >>>>> person. >>>>> >>>>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this >>>>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that >>>>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon >>>>> usage. >>>>> >>>>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also >>>>> racist meanings should be eventually abandoned? >>>>> >>>>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefan.strigler@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:45:08 2018 From: stefan.strigler@REDACTED (Stefan Strigler) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:45:08 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: I my culture fuck you has no meaning, because I'm German, and we don't speak English. So fuck you, you stupid asshole! On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:43 AM Stefan Strigler wrote: > Yeah, fuck you! > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:42 AM Sashan Govender wrote: > >> I think you just need to tolerate different cultures better. A word that >> is deemed racist in one culture isn't the same in another. >> >> There are many other uses for coon. >> Maine Coon is a type of cat. >> Coon is type of cheese in Australia. Go on - tell all of Australia to >> stop eating coon. >> >> Next you'll be telling me to rethink the use of the work 'monkey' or >> 'gorrilla' for a library. Where does it end? >> >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 3:52 AM Chris Duesing >> wrote: >> >>> I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, >>> there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans >>> are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't >>> offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh >>> I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking >>> ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only >>> intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: >>> >>>> For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title >>>> of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone >>>> call a raccoon a coon. >>>> >>>> The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is >>>> disappointing. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: >>>> >>>>> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I >>>>> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that >>>>> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. >>>>> >>>>> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he >>>>> is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the >>>>> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be >>>>> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it >>>>> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and >>>>> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever >>>>> they want in that name. >>>>> >>>>> That is 100% my point. >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < >>>>> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Fred Hebert writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. >>>>>> Picking >>>>>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as >>>>>> this e-mail >>>>>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption >>>>>> figures may >>>>>> > also reflect it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >>>>>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >>>>>> >>>>>> ? raccoon; >>>>>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >>>>>> person. >>>>>> >>>>>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this >>>>>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that >>>>>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon >>>>>> usage. >>>>>> >>>>>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also >>>>>> racist meanings should be eventually abandoned? >>>>>> >>>>>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> erlang-questions mailing list >> erlang-questions@REDACTED >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefan.strigler@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:46:04 2018 From: stefan.strigler@REDACTED (Stefan Strigler) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:46:04 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: Where would we end up if we Bavarians would have to learn English before we learn to speak it? On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:45 AM Stefan Strigler wrote: > I my culture fuck you has no meaning, because I'm German, and we don't > speak English. So fuck you, you stupid asshole! > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:43 AM Stefan Strigler > wrote: > >> Yeah, fuck you! >> >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:42 AM Sashan Govender >> wrote: >> >>> I think you just need to tolerate different cultures better. A word that >>> is deemed racist in one culture isn't the same in another. >>> >>> There are many other uses for coon. >>> Maine Coon is a type of cat. >>> Coon is type of cheese in Australia. Go on - tell all of Australia to >>> stop eating coon. >>> >>> Next you'll be telling me to rethink the use of the work 'monkey' or >>> 'gorrilla' for a library. Where does it end? >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 3:52 AM Chris Duesing >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, >>>> there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans >>>> are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't >>>> offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh >>>> I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking >>>> ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only >>>> intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx wrote: >>>> >>>>> For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title >>>>> of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone >>>>> call a raccoon a coon. >>>>> >>>>> The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is >>>>> disappointing. >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I >>>>>> asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that >>>>>> explanation and I'm ready to believe it. >>>>>> >>>>>> My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he >>>>>> is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the >>>>>> context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be >>>>>> interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it >>>>>> will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and >>>>>> keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever >>>>>> they want in that name. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is 100% my point. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz < >>>>>> krzysztof.jurewicz@REDACTED> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Fred Hebert writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they >>>>>>> want. Picking >>>>>>> > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as >>>>>>> this e-mail >>>>>>> > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption >>>>>>> figures may >>>>>>> > also reflect it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s >>>>>>> most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ? raccoon; >>>>>>> ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black >>>>>>> person. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this >>>>>>> context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that >>>>>>> is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon >>>>>>> usage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also >>>>>>> racist meanings should be eventually abandoned? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> erlang-questions mailing list >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> erlang-questions mailing list >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From essen@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:49:45 2018 From: essen@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Lo=c3=afc_Hoguin?=) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 01:49:45 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> Message-ID: <2baf89c9-7bbc-23c3-1065-a36c96fa8bdf@ninenines.eu> Great email, thanks. I'll just comment on one point which is very often forgotten, especially in the crazy days we currently live in. On 02/13/2018 12:51 AM, Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya wrote: > Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is > perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, /depending on the reach/?- what > might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San > Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have ADL > database > ?auto-completing > in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far. > > Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you /want/?to appeal to racists > and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in > quite a bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, > and someone points out to you that your choice of words may not be the > wisest choice, well, you might want to reconsider it (?). Note that the > point here isn't "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, > and thats about all that matters - remember, this is about the marketing > aspects of naming. > > Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask > yourself how they might feel about your actions. Not how they > /should/?feel, but how they might /actually/?feel. Empathy does matter. But not everyone has the same capability for empathy. For some people it's entirely built in and they never have to think twice about social situations. People with high functioning autism or Asperger[0] tend to have a really difficult time with social situations because they cannot know what is a social taboo without experience of it. But even then it never becomes natural. It's easy to say that you should ask yourself how someone might feel, but it's impossible for some people to actually do it. Some people probably think it is completely crazy to go with a name like Coon, and at the same time others can't imagine choosing that name will blow up in their face until it does, and even when it does they might not understand why it blows up in their face despite knowing it can be used as a slur. Not because they are assholes, not because they are stupid, just because they can't. Some people can't see colors, others can't see feelings. That's not to say the OP has Asperger or other[1]. But the outraged response from some people presumably does not take this into account. Being offended or outraged at someone for being insensitive is one thing, assuming they are malevolent is another. The world would be a much better place if we all tried to assume no ill intent from people we interact with when we think they are wrong. There's enough malevolence in the world that we do not need to seek it in everyone. Tech is a place that's been very good for people who are on that end of the spectrum, because of their problem-solving skills, so it's not surprising that there's so many people in tech who seem to be insensitive jerks and keep making social faux-pas (especially in an international setting!). But perhaps the right approach is not to demonize people for making these mistakes but rather to be understanding of the shortcomings of some people and instead try to convince them on their grounds instead of remaining on the topic of feelings. [0] Self tests can help figure out if you might be in that category, for example http://aspergerstest.net/aq-test/ - feel free to reply privately with the results or thoughts about it! Been there, done that. [1] I don't want to say "trouble", I'm very much on board the neurodiversity train. Cheers, > Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been > a/long/?while - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from > that upbringing has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the > receiving end of stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, > casual and explicit racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that > privilege. It's not an explicit thing - it's having been part of an > entire culture where being brahmin means I'm better than/those people/. > > Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, > money, in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, > and working cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, > and the last thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix. > > Cheers > > (?) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly > disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did > not know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans- and about > the only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist > faux-westerns by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to > my graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid) > discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't. > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev > wrote: > > The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, > but Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. > But could they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but > they are not present). Maybe the same people could be offended by > other words as well, how do we know? And should we really care > (having quite offensive names in the wild already)? Should we run > all possible project names through the council of these people? > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin > wrote: > > I?would?like?to?second?what?Fred?said.?I?just?went?through > something?like?this?in?a different?context?and?I?have to?say > "its not reasonable that is offended" is a pretty bad > apology. > ? > > Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software > I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics > +972 54 234 3956 / +44 203 734 9790 > / +1 617 778 7213 > > Book a meeting with me > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, > wrote: > > On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: > > Intent does not matter. > > No. > > Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone > several rounds with you on several subjects, each time > having learned something for my own part. On technical > subjects, anyway. > > But... INTENT > > You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will > not win against the weight of history. > > > I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library > in my god damn workplace. Because I know and have worked > with people who do find this kind of shit offensive. > > I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where > everyone is fine with that. This has not been the reality of > the people I have spent time with both professionally and > personally. > > > This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not > because you care about that but because of the ambient > temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, > but that is the only place this winds up going these > days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes > a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system > of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic > one of critical importance that pays for all the other > parties we enjoy. > > > I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that > can very reasonably be construed as racist is /SJW flippancy/. > > Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on > Urban Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or > short terms: > > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon > > Insulting term for a black person > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo > > An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to > express the meaning of the picture. Usually found in > captions. > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat > > The definitive pet. > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog > > Not a cat > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox > > A beautiful and attractive woman > * https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale > > noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special > attention by a casino host so the patron will feel > comfortable to gamble more money. > > ?Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for > that one. > > /Intent does not matter/ is not me saying that the author of > the lib is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no > matter the original intent, the consequences will be the > result of the reader's interpretation. Look this is even a > principle in literary review called /The death of the > author/ > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author > ): > > In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of > reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the > author's identity?their political views, historical > context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other > biographical or personal attributes?to distill meaning > from the author's work. In this type of criticism, the > experiences and biases of the author serve as a > definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this > method of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient > but is actually sloppy and flawed: "To give a text an > author" and assign a single, corresponding > interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text". > > [...] > > In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy > between text and textiles, declaring that a "text is a > tissue [or fabric] of quotations", drawn from > "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, > individual experience. The essential meaning of a work > depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than > the "passions" or "tastes" of the writer; "a text's > unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in > its destination", or its audience. > > > The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the > author to be around to give meaning and maintain these > things. What the author intends is not relevant in the long > run because the interpretation can get away from it. It's > like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible > and enough in your face that it won't be construed as > supporting the system you are attempting to criticize. > > Intent does not matter. > > > > Riddle me this: > If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems > that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" > mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a > manifest degree the economic and social value systems > (which are profoundly more complex than our petty > software systems) that we can dictate value within them? > By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a > "reasonble default"? > > I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I > have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot > imagine that you have properly considered the > alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up > eventualy going. > > > I very much stand by /intent does not matter/. It matters to > me in this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, > I trust that /raccoon/ was indeed the original name intent. > It does not mean that other people will do the same. > Expecting other people to do the same is downright absurd > and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining > every single person the origin of the name for things to go > well, you have taken the losing battle of tilting at > windmills. This is the hill you die on. What I'm doing here > is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much > windmill tilting you'll get into. > > If you want me to go by the /Let it Crash/ maxim, the idea > of /let it crash/ is to not try to handle all the errors and > letting them fail early and often. Start from a clean slate > rather than trying to correct corrupted state. What I'm > doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass project name > as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying > to handle every error coming their way in the near future. > Look at it this way. You even have a bunch of terms for it > in this single thread: /SJW Flippancy./ Loic brought up > /identity politics/. Roman is trying make a tally of who is > it who's offended in the first place as if that made any > difference the moment this gets out of here. > > If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion > is taking place within mailing list regulars, what will be a > reasonable waning sign to you? > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > -- > With best regards, > ? ? ?Roman Galeev, > +420?702 817 968 > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > -- > * > *Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya > * > That tall bald Indian guy.. > * > * > Twitter ?| * > * > * > Blog | > * > ** > * > * > G+ > * > * > * > ** > * > * > * > * > | > * > * > * > * > ** > * > LinkedIn > * > * > * > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu From stefan.strigler@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:59:58 2018 From: stefan.strigler@REDACTED (Stefan Strigler) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:59:58 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <2baf89c9-7bbc-23c3-1065-a36c96fa8bdf@ninenines.eu> References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> <2baf89c9-7bbc-23c3-1065-a36c96fa8bdf@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:49 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > Great email, thanks. I'll just comment on one point which is very often > forgotten, especially in the crazy days we currently live in. > We DON'T live in crazy days. It's just people like you who make them seem like crazy days over and over again. And in the end it's just your kind who makes them seem crazy because all YOU are after is VICTIMISING yourself but in realitiy YOU ARE the PERPETRATORS. Just that you can't believe that because things are not working out the way you though out. You think things should work out better for you and just because they don't you're upset. HEY! Welcome to our world, losers! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stefan.strigler@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 02:12:32 2018 From: stefan.strigler@REDACTED (Stefan Strigler) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 01:12:32 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <2baf89c9-7bbc-23c3-1065-a36c96fa8bdf@ninenines.eu> References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> <2baf89c9-7bbc-23c3-1065-a36c96fa8bdf@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:49 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: > > That's not to say the OP has Asperger or other[1]. But the outraged > response from some people presumably does not take this into account. > Being offended or outraged at someone for being insensitive is one > thing, assuming they are malevolent is another. The world would be a > much better place if we all tried to assume no ill intent from people we > interact with when we think they are wrong. There's enough malevolence > in the world that we do not need to seek it in everyone. > > You're taking quite a stretch here and I think it's just despicable. The outraged response is less about the original post than about the /community/ wide response. And you are playing a central role there. Side note: I know a few people with aforementioned diagnosis and I can just tell you: Shut up! You are abusive at that point. Just don't! So, show me a single post that incurred malevolence. The ones I've found were all about pointing out a single glitch. Nobody ever said the bad name was by intention. You are playing the victim card while never being the offender nor the actual victim? Don't you think that's suspicious? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mononcqc@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 02:15:45 2018 From: mononcqc@REDACTED (Fred Hebert) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 20:15:45 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180213011544.GA17972@ferdmbp.local> On 02/13, Sashan Govender wrote: >I think you just need to tolerate different cultures better. A word that is >deemed racist in one culture isn't the same in another. > This is wrong. This is a classical bad argument that is related to the *paradox of intolerance*. Unless I am simply unaware of it, there is no English-speaking culture for which the word 'coon' (and not just 'raccoon') is somehow a very important concept integral to their culture, such that not using it would be oppressive in some way. In any case, the paradox of intolerance goes like this: > Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we > extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are > not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the > intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with > them. You can't just go and honestly try to make the argument that purposefully using a term that is deemed racist by most of the anglosphere is somehow cool and good because another unnamed culture probably sees no problem about it. How is that in any way reasonable? >There are many other uses for coon. >Maine Coon is a type of cat. >Coon is type of cheese in Australia. Go on - tell all of Australia to stop >eating coon. > The tool is called 'coon', not 'Maine coon', and it is not called 'coon (cheese)'. It's not called 'raccoon', and it does not have a single raccoon image. Instead you have commands like 'coon build', 'coon release', and a hosting site like 'coonhub'. And that some cheese brand uses the name does not mean it's any decent idea for a programming tool. What the hell of a kind of logic leap is that? Are you unable to see context as worthwhile or to imagine that someone might think "this is the racist term" more easily than "this is clearly a reference to cheese" This can't be anything but bad faith. This is not really the topic on which to argue as a sport. >Next you'll be telling me to rethink the use of the work 'monkey' or >'gorrilla' for a library. Where does it end? > It ends with respectfully not trying to piss off entire segments of the human race with shitty naming strategies that have very obvious racist overtones, as soon as you learn what their meaning is. Everyone is allowed to make mistakes, but if you double- and triple-down on it, you deserve the shitstorm coming your way from public backlash. Hands down. I'm sorry that using racist terms is somehow integral to your appreciation of programming libraries, but *not* using racist terms is somehow integral to my appreciation of programming communities. It seems we're in a quandary here, so I'll refer to the conclusion to the paradox of intolerance that follows the earlier quote: "We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant." so gently piss off. From therevoltingx@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 03:31:58 2018 From: therevoltingx@REDACTED (Miguel Morales) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 18:31:58 -0800 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <20180213011544.GA17972@ferdmbp.local> References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> <20180213011544.GA17972@ferdmbp.local> Message-ID: Erlang's dialect is in English. Therefore the context is in English language, not your native language. Therefore the word is offensive to Erlang's audience. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:15 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > On 02/13, Sashan Govender wrote: > >> I think you just need to tolerate different cultures better. A word that >> is >> deemed racist in one culture isn't the same in another. >> >> > This is wrong. This is a classical bad argument that is related to the > *paradox of intolerance*. Unless I am simply unaware of it, there is no > English-speaking culture for which the word 'coon' (and not just 'raccoon') > is somehow a very important concept integral to their culture, such that > not using it would be oppressive in some way. > > In any case, the paradox of intolerance goes like this: > > Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we >> extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not >> prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the >> intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. >> > > You can't just go and honestly try to make the argument that purposefully > using a term that is deemed racist by most of the anglosphere is somehow > cool and good because another unnamed culture probably sees no problem > about it. How is that in any way reasonable? > > > There are many other uses for coon. >> Maine Coon is a type of cat. >> Coon is type of cheese in Australia. Go on - tell all of Australia to stop >> eating coon. >> >> > The tool is called 'coon', not 'Maine coon', and it is not called 'coon > (cheese)'. It's not called 'raccoon', and it does not have a single raccoon > image. Instead you have commands like 'coon build', 'coon release', and a > hosting site like 'coonhub'. > > And that some cheese brand uses the name does not mean it's any decent > idea for a programming tool. What the hell of a kind of logic leap is > that? Are you unable to see context as worthwhile or to imagine that > someone might think "this is the racist term" more easily than "this is > clearly a reference to cheese" > > This can't be anything but bad faith. This is not really the topic on > which to argue as a sport. > > Next you'll be telling me to rethink the use of the work 'monkey' or >> 'gorrilla' for a library. Where does it end? >> >> > It ends with respectfully not trying to piss off entire segments of the > human race with shitty naming strategies that have very obvious racist > overtones, as soon as you learn what their meaning is. Everyone is allowed > to make mistakes, but if you double- and triple-down on it, you deserve the > shitstorm coming your way from public backlash. Hands down. > > I'm sorry that using racist terms is somehow integral to your appreciation > of programming libraries, but *not* using racist terms is somehow integral > to my appreciation of programming communities. > > It seems we're in a quandary here, so I'll refer to the conclusion to the > paradox of intolerance that follows the earlier quote: "We should therefore > claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant." > > so gently piss off. > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alisdairsullivan@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 05:43:54 2018 From: alisdairsullivan@REDACTED (alisdair sullivan) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 04:43:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <2baf89c9-7bbc-23c3-1065-a36c96fa8bdf@ninenines.eu> References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> <2baf89c9-7bbc-23c3-1065-a36c96fa8bdf@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <603925620.206944.1518497034394@mail.yahoo.com> this is good advice; you should take it fred and others simply pointed out the negative connotations of the chosen name and outlined some potential consequences. you were the one who read that as some outraged demand for political correctness. in fact, if you had applied your own principle of charity to fred's reply you probably would have just assumed he was trying to prevent a potentially unintended faux pas and gone back to tweeting about the rothschild takeover of france or whatever. instead you assumed malice and made it into a whole issue. great work, much demonization was accomplished here today the bottom line is we're all free to name our projects whatever dumb offensive garbage we want but we should probably not expect those choices to be consequence free On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:49 PM, Lo?c Hoguin wrote:Empathy does matter. But not everyone has the same capability for empathy. For some people it's entirely built in and they never have to think twice about social situations. People with high functioning autism or Asperger[0] tend to have a really difficult time with social situations because they cannot know what is a social taboo without experience of it. But even then it never becomes natural. It's easy to say that you should ask yourself how someone might feel, but it's impossible for some people to actually do it. Some people probably think it is completely crazy to go with a name like Coon, and at the same time others can't imagine choosing that name will blow up in their face until it does, and even when it does they might not understand why it blows up in their face despite knowing it can be used as a slur. Not because they are assholes, not because they are stupid, just because they can't. Some people can't see colors, others can't see feelings. That's not to say the OP has Asperger or other[1]. But the outraged response from some people presumably does not take this into account. Being offended or outraged at someone for being insensitive is one thing, assuming they are malevolent is another. The world would be a much better place if we all tried to assume no ill intent from people we interact with when we think they are wrong. There's enough malevolence in the world that we do not need to seek it in everyone. Tech is a place that's been very good for people who are on that end of the spectrum, because of their problem-solving skills, so it's not surprising that there's so many people in tech who seem to be insensitive jerks and keep making social faux-pas (especially in an international setting!). But perhaps the right approach is not to demonize people for making these mistakes but rather to be understanding of the shortcomings of some people and instead try to convince them on their grounds instead of remaining on the topic of feelings. [0] Self tests can help figure out if you might be in that category, for example http://aspergerstest.net/aq-test/ - feel free to reply privately with the results or thoughts about it! Been there, done that. [1] I don't want to say "trouble", I'm very much on board the neurodiversity train. Cheers, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tommy@REDACTED Mon Feb 12 23:57:03 2018 From: tommy@REDACTED (CARPENTER, TOMMY J (TOMMY J)) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 22:57:03 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There?s something that hasn?t been discussed much in this thread. I was part of the small group responsible for bringing Erlang into one of the largest companies in the world; AT&T (not counting the hardware that probably runs Erlang). As such, I am partially responsible for the vetting of the ecosystem as well as popular libraries that developers would use. Would I *ever* put a codebase into my company using this package? No. Would I *ever* use this in a codebase that a single other developer could see? No. Would I add this to the Erlang ecosystem inside AT&T? No. I don?t wish for a date with corporate lawyers. If it had a better name, and was a good software project, would I? Absolutely. You are asking for lawsuits if you use this kind of horrible language in the workplace. It doesn?t matter what the intent is. If your goal is adoption, pick a name that people can use in all situations ranging from personal projects to large company projects. From: Charles Hixson > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 1:26:02 PM EST To: > I'm sorry, but "coon" was definitely a pejorative term during *my* childhood. I'm not a part of the affected group, but it is certainly one of the strongly associated meanings that attach to it in my mind. Use a word meaning the same animal from a different language. Or spell out the name in full. Or name it after someone's pet raccoon. Or just change it. There's no downside to changing it, and there is a downside to keeping it. I don't know how strong a downside, but it's better to avoid any. On 02/12/2018 07:11 AM, Chris Waymire wrote: The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed. Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning. Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons". On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote: Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent. ?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black" looks a lot like a racist slur. People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is important and there's no intent to slur here. On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote: > One would presume that all the black persons who have been called in an > effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men > with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial slurs, > not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: > > More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people outside > of North America know about it. > > And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly fine > because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists angry for > sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing. > Nowadays that tends to be a good thing. > > Most people will not think twice about it. > > On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name? > > > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov > > >> > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I would like to introduce ?oon > - > > build and dependency management system and tool for easy deployment > > Erlang packages. > > In short: > > > > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub > > >, what reduces build time > > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for > > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo > > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service > > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed > > with `coon install namespace/name` > > > > Documentation, articles and links: > > > > coon (client) - https://github.com/comtihon/coon > > > see Readme.md and doc folder > > > > coon_auto_builder (server) - > > https://github.com/comtihon/coon_auto_builder > > > > > > > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch > > https://justtech.blog/2018/01/07/create-erlang-service-with-coon/ > > > > > > > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy > > > https://justtech.blog/2018/02/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-with-coon/ > > > > > > > > example service which uses coon > > https://github.com/comtihon/example_service > > > > > > > example library which uses coon > > https://github.com/comtihon/mongodb-erlang > > > > > > > Hope you find this tool useful :) > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > -- > Lo?c Hoguin > https://ninenines.eu > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From: Charles Hixson > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 1:38:04 PM EST To: > Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name. I never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has retarded the success of the project significantly, and kept it out of at least two businesses that I know of. Recently they've started altering the display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image Manipulation Program" on the startup screen. That's what "The Gimp" always stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less blatant...because some people *were* offended, and because businesses didn't want to risk offending customers. I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well avoid mentioning it to others. On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote: Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can?t believe there?s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I?d apologises and change it. Maybe that?s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no. If there?s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon. I need to use erlang for my work, please don?t stick with this name. I don?t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also? On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter wrote: This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away. For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. -- Tristan Sloughter "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson t@REDACTED On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: Intent does not matter. No. Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway. But... INTENT You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history. This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy. Riddle me this: If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"? I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going. -Craig _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From: Antonio SJ Musumeci > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 1:54:53 PM EST To: Charles Hixson > Cc: Erlang-Questions Questions > "retarded" Poor word choice given the thread topic. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Charles Hixson > wrote: Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name. I never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has retarded the success of the project significantly, and kept it out of at least two businesses that I know of. Recently they've started altering the display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image Manipulation Program" on the startup screen. That's what "The Gimp" always stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less blatant...because some people *were* offended, and because businesses didn't want to risk offending customers. I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well avoid mentioning it to others. On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote: Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can?t believe there?s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I?d apologises and change it. Maybe that?s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no. If there?s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon. I need to use erlang for my work, please don?t stick with this name. I don?t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also? On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter wrote: This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away. For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American. -- Tristan Sloughter "I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson t@REDACTED On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, zxq9@REDACTED wrote: On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: Intent does not matter. No. Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own part. On technical subjects, anyway. But... INTENT You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against the weight of history. This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other parties we enjoy. Riddle me this: If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"? I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going. -Craig _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From: Charles Hixson > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 1:59:28 PM EST To: > "Coon" is often used as a shortened name for the animal. If you can definitely tell from context that that is what is meant, it isn't (usually) seen as a racial slur. But you do need to know your audience. If you don't, it's almost certain that a major fraction of them will consider the slur as a plausible meaning. And that's when the context implies that you mean "raccoon". On 02/12/2018 08:52 AM, Chris Duesing wrote: I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx > wrote: For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon. The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert > wrote: What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it. My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way, and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name. That is 100% my point. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz > wrote: Fred Hebert writes: > Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking > a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail > thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may > also reflect it. Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as ?America?s most-trusted online dictionary?) says that there two meanings of ?coon?: ? raccoon; ? offensive ? used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person. I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ?? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as ?coon?, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage. Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned? (I?m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance). _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From: Charles Hixson > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 2:11:30 PM EST To: > Did you ever read how much Exxon paid to find a name that wasn't taken and wasn't objectionable? Whee! I was shocked. (I couldn't find a link for it in a short Google search, and I don't remember the exact figure, but it was more than the cost of the most recently built college dorm.) But it's also true that it's important that a name be easily memorable, which lets out the SHA-1 choice...though that makes a good unique identifier. Picking a good name is hard. But to me this doesn't seem a wise choice. On 02/12/2018 09:58 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote: Goodness - what a lot of mails. When choosing a name the following algorithm is used by many organisations and people 1) Choose a name 2) Check in all known languages if this might offend someone if it does goto 1) (There are even companies you can hire that do this, if it's a big product) If I wrote some software I would like it to be discussed for the right reasons, which are - it is useful - it is beautiful - it solves some interesting problem - it raises and solves some interesting problem I would not like it to be discussed for my skills in naming the damn code. I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. If you choose the wrong name you can accidentally offend people, even if this is not your intention - offending people has consequences. Cheers /Joe On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:28 PM, > wrote: On 2018?2?12???? 12?10?20? JST Tom Santero wrote: Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd like to point about: THANK YOU 1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my projects. lol security? I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that involves external dependencies, the security is only as strong as the signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the signature. Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether source or pre-built) as repository inputs. 2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several years now, and makes it relatively useless I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The common environment today is more like a (to use an awful term) "devops" environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way Python projects that use virtualenv can be. I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption "everything has to be an Erlang distribution". -Craig _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__erlang.org_mailman_listinfo_erlang-2Dquestions&d=DwIDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=7oaWy2AsAVOx8WNsPTD8zgrr2PWEv1AfMDVagFbPKMU&e= _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__erlang.org_mailman_listinfo_erlang-2Dquestions&d=DwIDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=7oaWy2AsAVOx8WNsPTD8zgrr2PWEv1AfMDVagFbPKMU&e= From: Lo?c Hoguin > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 2:13:59 PM EST To: Tom Santero > Cc: Erlang > On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He made the call and ran with it. Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest movies, so the inspiration is fictional. Nobody has had any problem with it. Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic. Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context, it is disappointing. If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products. Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too. I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today (Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially telling that it hadn't been translated to English for so long despite being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be. Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages. Culture changes fast enough that you might see otherwise normal words become slur within your lifetime. According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it, otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands. Still I don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories does not make me side with anyone in historical events. Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process for coming up with the name is irrelevant, just as the history behind a practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme. And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the others, I decided against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a native American tribe. Maybe later. Cheers, -- Lo?c Hoguin https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ninenines.eu&d=DwIDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=J03QS8mi2WFKwEnw6RBjqweAAWy4ynOHjx4BZO00wEw&e= From: Stefan Strigler > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 3:05:33 PM EST To: Lo?c Hoguin > Cc: Erlang > There's a difference between making a mistake and refusing to learn from them once pointed out. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:14 PM Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Lo?c Hoguin > >> wrote: > > On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if > he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its > > initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old > conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far > Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make > any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He > made the call and ran with it. > > > Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my > knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest > movies, so the inspiration is fictional. > > Nobody has had any problem with it. > > > Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic. > Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming > context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted > under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context, > it is disappointing. If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products. Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too. I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today (Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially telling that it hadn't been translated to English for so long despite being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be. Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages. Culture changes fast enough that you might see otherwise normal words become slur within your lifetime. According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it, otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands. Still I don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories does not make me side with anyone in historical events. Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process for coming up with the name is irrelevant, just as the history behind a practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme. And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the others, I decided against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a native American tribe. Maybe later. Cheers, -- Lo?c Hoguin https://ninenines.eu _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From: Jesper Louis Andersen > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 3:06:35 PM EST To: Joe Armstrong > Cc: Erlang > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong > wrote: I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. I might have said this before, but here goes: Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages. From: Vlad Dumitrescu > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 4:06:28 PM EST To: Jesper Louis Andersen > Cc: Erlang > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen > wrote: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong > wrote: I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. I might have said this before, but here goes: Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages. I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a package as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list of other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package is renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a reference points. Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is useful except for tools. best regards, Vlad From: "Lloyd R. Prentice" > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services Date: February 12, 2018 at 4:35:26 PM EST To: Jesper Louis Andersen > Cc: Erlang > Hello, Jesper and Joe do make good sense to me. And, more, I would like to see much more informed debate on the technical merits of this new tool. As aside, however, I haven?t seen so much activity on this list since I first subscribed some four years ago. Note that we haven?t heard from any North American black Erlang programmers on this list. Why would that be? I?m a privileged, white (so far as I know from my spotty genealogy, although the recent work on the Chadwick man casts some doubt), provincial North American male. Some in my genetic/gender/national cohort feel that our group is being grievously discriminated against. I don?t happen to feel so for plenty of socio-economic reasons. Nevertheless, the name of this new tool did seem unfortunate in the extreme to me. Were my skin black, from everything I know, I would definitely feel a twinge of pain and resentment every time one of the many words used historically to define me as less than a respected human being was tossed around in casual conversation. But some on this list are correct. One can be overly sensitive and some groups do exploit these sensitivities for politely advantage. Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that naming of software packages in these times has many cross-cultural implications. For us, that is the Erlang community, the big question is how can we learn and grow together regardless of our respective cultural heritages? How can we minimize the contentious bickering and trolling that has infected so much discourse across the web? Tribalism is a reality in our world. Every tribe has its own taboos, sensitivities, and moral blind spots. But our world is ever more interconnected and interdependent. Empathy and respect for the feelings of others can go a long way toward reducing the friction of cross-cultural exchange. As can respectful discussion of differences. For me, this thread reinforces my belief in this principle. All the best, LRP Sent from my iPad On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen > wrote: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong > wrote: I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. I might have said this before, but here goes: Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages. _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions Sent from my iPad On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen > wrote: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong > wrote: I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. I might have said this before, but here goes: Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages. _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions _______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__erlang.org_mailman_listinfo_erlang-2Dquestions&d=DwICAg&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=7oaWy2AsAVOx8WNsPTD8zgrr2PWEv1AfMDVagFbPKMU&e= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From find.roman@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 01:27:06 2018 From: find.roman@REDACTED (Roman Rabinovich) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 19:27:06 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What is this bull, I'm not interested in naming conventions. It's not Erlang related so stop sending it. On 12 Feb 2018 7:25 pm, wrote: > Send erlang-questions mailing list submissions to > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > erlang-questions-request@REDACTED > > You can reach the person managing the list at > erlang-questions-owner@REDACTED > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of erlang-questions digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Miguel Morales) > 2. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Joe Armstrong) > 3. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Vlad Dumitrescu) > 4. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Eric des Courtis) > 5. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya) > 6. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency > management and deploying Erlang services (Stefan Strigler) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:38:26 -0800 > From: Miguel Morales > To: "Lloyd R. Prentice" > Cc: Erlang > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: > JjXficw@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I'm a hispanic developer in North America. This name is certainly > offensive. I'm a big proponent of free speech and am against overreaching > social justice causes. > However, in this case, if you want the project to succeed I highly > recommend changing the name. > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Lloyd R. Prentice > wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Jesper and Joe do make good sense to me. > > > > And, more, I would like to see much more informed debate on the technical > > merits of this new tool. > > > > As aside, however, I haven?t seen so much activity on this list since I > > first subscribed some four years ago. > > > > Note that we haven?t heard from any North American black Erlang > > programmers on this list. Why would that be? > > > > I?m a privileged, white (so far as I know from my spotty genealogy, > > although the recent work on the Chadwick man casts some doubt), > provincial > > North American male. > > > > Some in my genetic/gender/national cohort feel that our group is being > > grievously discriminated against. I don?t happen to feel so for plenty of > > socio-economic reasons. > > > > Nevertheless, the name of this new tool did seem unfortunate in the > > extreme to me. Were my skin black, from everything I know, I would > > definitely feel a twinge of pain and resentment every time one of the > many > > words used historically to define me as less than a respected human being > > was tossed around in casual conversation. > > > > But some on this list are correct. One can be overly sensitive and some > > groups do exploit these sensitivities for politely advantage. > > > > Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that naming of software packages in > > these times has many cross-cultural implications. > > > > For us, that is the Erlang community, the big question is how can we > learn > > and grow together regardless of our respective cultural heritages? How > can > > we minimize the contentious bickering and trolling that has infected so > > much discourse across the web? > > > > Tribalism is a reality in our world. Every tribe has its own taboos, > > sensitivities, and moral blind spots. > > > > But our world is ever more interconnected and interdependent. Empathy and > > respect for the feelings of others can go a long way toward reducing the > > friction of cross-cultural exchange. As can respectful discussion of > > differences. > > > > For me, this thread reinforces my belief in this principle. > > > > All the best, > > > > LRP > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen < > > jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: > > > >> > >> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 > >> checksum of > >> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart > >> from those who > >> thought the name could be a tad simpler. > >> > >> > > I might have said this before, but here goes: > > > > Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name > to > > the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > > headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > > > > It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As > > in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 > > months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > > > > I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why > > it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > > content-addressable-store for your packages. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen < > > jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: > > > >> > >> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 > >> checksum of > >> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart > >> from those who > >> thought the name could be a tad simpler. > >> > >> > > I might have said this before, but here goes: > > > > Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name > to > > the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > > headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > > > > It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As > > in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 > > months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > > > > I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why > > it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > > content-addressable-store for your packages. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180212/44a7c7ac/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 22:58:01 +0100 > From: Joe Armstrong > To: Vlad Dumitrescu > Cc: Erlang > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: > w@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen > > wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 > >>> checksum of > >>> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart > >>> from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. > >>> > >> > >> I might have said this before, but here goes: > >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name > to > >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > headaches > >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. > As > >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 > >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why > >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > >> content-addressable-store for your packages. > > > > > > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a > package > > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list > of > > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names > > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package > is > > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a > > reference points. > > The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of > names - this list of > checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package). > > A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different > human readable names > are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum. > > Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly > obvious reasons of > convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or > appropriate. > > For a given content the checksum is unique. > > To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of > > {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of > the checksum over time > > Should be easy (Famous last words rule applies here) > > Cheers > > /Joe > > > > > > > > Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is > > stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is > > useful except for tools. > > > > best regards, > > Vlad > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 23:36:37 +0100 > From: Vlad Dumitrescu > To: Joe Armstrong > Cc: Erlang > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:58 PM, Joe Armstrong wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu > > wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen > > > wrote: > > >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the > name > > to > > >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > > headaches > > >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > > >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. > > As > > >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people > 6 > > >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > > >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, > why > > >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > > >> content-addressable-store for your packages. > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a > > package > > > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies > list > > of > > > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names > > > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package > > is > > > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a > > > reference points. > > > > The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of > > names - this list of > > checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package). > > > > A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different > > human readable names > > are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum. > > > > Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly > > obvious reasons of > > convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or > > appropriate. > > > > For a given content the checksum is unique. > > > > To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of > > > > {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of > > the checksum over time > > > > Thanks for the explanation, I understand the mechanics, but not the "real > world usage". > > * A checksum referes to a {package_name, time} tuple, so there is no way to > refer to the package in general. Except by its name. > > * Even if there was, nobody is going to say "For a gizmo processing > library, we have to choose > between B17556DB683000BA50370B16C0619DF1337E7AF7ECBF7D64FBF8D1D6BCE3109B > and 7ACC7D785B5ABE8A6E9ADBDE926A24E481F29956DD8B4DF49E3E4E7BCC92A018, > which > one is better?" So people will use names. > > * Now the project is presumably configured in a file, written by a > programmer - again the name will be used. The hash can be retrieved and > stored by the build tool, so that we get a hard reference... > > * ... which is exactly what rebar and mix do with hex.pm (if I get it > right), except they use the version string instead of timestamp. So if > hex.pm keeps track of timestamps and of historical mappings between names > and hashes, then it's done! > > * However, the imprecision of using names remains because we're humans. > Tools already use hashes. > > Am I misunderstanding something? > > best regards, > Vlad > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180212/bfdae329/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:55:29 -0500 > From: Eric des Courtis > To: Erlang > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Everyone, stop acting like a bunch of Java programmers and get back to > work! > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Joe Armstrong wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu > > wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 > > >>> checksum of > > >>> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart > > >>> from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler. > > >>> > > >> > > >> I might have said this before, but here goes: > > >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the > name > > to > > >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of > > headaches > > >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. > > >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. > > As > > >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people > 6 > > >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". > > >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, > why > > >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a > > >> content-addressable-store for your packages. > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a > > package > > > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies > list > > of > > > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names > > > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package > > is > > > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a > > > reference points. > > > > The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of > > names - this list of > > checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package). > > > > A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different > > human readable names > > are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum. > > > > Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly > > obvious reasons of > > convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or > > appropriate. > > > > For a given content the checksum is unique. > > > > To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of > > > > {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of > > the checksum over time > > > > Should be easy (Famous last words rule applies here) > > > > Cheers > > > > /Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that > is > > > stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it > is > > > useful except for tools. > > > > > > best regards, > > > Vlad > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180212/ab1a53f3/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 05:21:32 +0530 > From: Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya > To: Erlang > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: > M3HPPTUoTQ@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is > perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, *depending on the reach* - what > might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San > Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have ADL > database > > auto-completing > in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far. > > Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you *want* to appeal to racists > and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in quite a > bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, and someone > points out to you that your choice of words may not be the wisest choice, > well, you might want to reconsider it (?). Note that the point here isn't > "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, and thats about all > that matters - remember, this is about the marketing aspects of naming. > > Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask yourself > how they might feel about your actions. Not how they *should* feel, but how > they might *actually* feel. > > Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been a *long* > while > - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from that upbringing > has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the receiving end of > stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, casual and explicit > racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that privilege. It's not an > explicit thing - it's having been part of an entire culture where being > brahmin means I'm better than *those people*. > > Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, money, > in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, and working > cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, and the last > thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix. > > Cheers > > (?) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly > disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did not > know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans - and about the > only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist faux-westerns > by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to my > graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid) > discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't. > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > > > The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but > Fred > > speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they, > or > > could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present). > Maybe > > the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know? > > And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild > > already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of > > these people? > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin > wrote: > > > >> I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through > >> something like this in a different context and I have to say "its not > >> reasonable that is offended" is a pretty bad apology. > >> ? > >> > >> Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software > >> I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics > >> +972 54 234 3956 <+972%2054-234-3956> / +44 203 734 9790 > >> <+44%2020%203734%209790> / +1 617 778 7213 <(617)%20778-7213> > >> Book a meeting with me > >> > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: > >>>> > Intent does not matter. > >>>> > >>>> No. > >>>> > >>>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds > with > >>>> you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own > >>>> part. On technical subjects, anyway. > >>>> > >>>> But... INTENT > >>>> > >>>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against > >>>> the weight of history. > >>>> > >>> > >>> I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god > >>> damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find > this > >>> kind of shit offensive. > >>> > >>> I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine > >>> with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent > time > >>> with both professionally and personally. > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care > >>>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW > flippancy is > >>>> not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these > days. > >>>> That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not > just > >>>> in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a > concrete > >>>> socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other > >>>> parties we enjoy. > >>>> > >>> > >>> I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very > >>> reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*. > >>> > >>> Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban > >>> Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms: > >>> > >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon > >>> Insulting term for a black person > >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo > >>> An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the > >>> meaning of the picture. Usually found in captions. > >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat > >>> The definitive pet. > >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog > >>> Not a cat > >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox > >>> A beautiful and attractive woman > >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale > >>> noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by a > >>> casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more > money. > >>> > >>> Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one. > >>> > >>> *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib is > >>> racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original > intent, > >>> the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation. > Look > >>> this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of the > >>> author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author): > >>> > >>> In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and > criticism > >>>> that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their political views, > >>>> historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other > biographical > >>>> or personal attributes?to distill meaning from the author's work. In > this > >>>> type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a > >>>> definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of > reading > >>>> may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and > flawed: > >>>> "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding > >>>> interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text". > >>>> > >>>> [...] > >>>> > >>>> In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and > >>>> textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of > quotations", > >>>> drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, > >>>> individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the > >>>> impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of > the > >>>> writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, > "but in > >>>> its destination", or its audience. > >>>> > >>> > >>> The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be > >>> around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author > intends > >>> is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away > >>> from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be > visible and > >>> enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the > system you > >>> are attempting to criticize. > >>> > >>> Intent does not matter. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Riddle me this: > >>>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE > >>>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we > >>>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value > >>>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software > systems) > >>>> that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is > this > >>>> all brought back to a "reasonble default"? > >>>> > >>>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound > >>>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly > >>>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up > >>>> eventualy going. > >>>> > >>> > >>> I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in this > >>> context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that > *raccoon* > >>> was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people > >>> will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright > absurd > >>> and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single > >>> person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the > >>> losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on. > What > >>> I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much > >>> windmill tilting you'll get into. > >>> > >>> If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it > >>> crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail > >>> early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct > >>> corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass > >>> project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck > trying to > >>> handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this > >>> way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW > >>> Flippancy.* Loic brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make a > >>> tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made > any > >>> difference the moment this gets out of here. > >>> > >>> If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking > >>> place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning > sign > >>> to you? > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> erlang-questions mailing list > >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> erlang-questions mailing list > >> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > With best regards, > > Roman Galeev, > > +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > > > > > -- > > *Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya > That > tall bald Indian guy..* > *Twitter | Blog > | G+ > | LinkedIn > * > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180213/e9f6ee53/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:25:05 +0000 > From: Stefan Strigler > To: Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya > Cc: Erlang > Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang > packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services > Message-ID: > 7A@REDACTED> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > +1 Mahesh, you're the best, thanks for taking that effort! > > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:51 AM Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya < > mahesh@REDACTED> wrote: > > > Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is > > perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, *depending on the reach* - what > > might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San > > Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have ADL > > database > > > auto-completing > > in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far. > > > > Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you *want* to appeal to racists > > and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in > quite a > > bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, and > someone > > points out to you that your choice of words may not be the wisest choice, > > well, you might want to reconsider it (?). Note that the point here isn't > > "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, and thats about > all > > that matters - remember, this is about the marketing aspects of naming. > > > > Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask yourself > > how they might feel about your actions. Not how they *should* feel, but > > how they might *actually* feel. > > > > Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been a *long* > while > > - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from that upbringing > > has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the receiving end of > > stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, casual and explicit > > racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that privilege. It's not > an > > explicit thing - it's having been part of an entire culture where being > > brahmin means I'm better than *those people*. > > > > Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, > money, > > in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, and > working > > cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, and the last > > thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix. > > > > Cheers > > > > (?) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly > > disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did > not > > know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans - and about the > > only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist > faux-westerns > > by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to my > > graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid) > > discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev wrote: > > > >> The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but > >> Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could > >> they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not > >> present). Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as > well, > >> how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names > in > >> the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the > >> council of these people? > >> > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through something > like this in a different context and I have to say > >>> "its not reasonable that is offended" is a pretty bad apology. > >>> ? > >>> > >>> Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software > >>> I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics > >>> +972 54 234 3956 <+972%2054-234-3956> / +44 203 734 9790 > >>> <+44%2020%203734%209790> / +1 617 778 7213 <(617)%20778-7213> > >>> Book a meeting with me > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote: > >>>>> > Intent does not matter. > >>>>> > >>>>> No. > >>>>> > >>>>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds > >>>>> with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for > my own > >>>>> part. On technical subjects, anyway. > >>>>> > >>>>> But... INTENT > >>>>> > >>>>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win > against > >>>>> the weight of history. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god > >>>> damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do > find this > >>>> kind of shit offensive. > >>>> > >>>> I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine > >>>> with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent > time > >>>> with both professionally and personally. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you > care > >>>>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW > flippancy is > >>>>> not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going > these days. > >>>>> That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, > not just > >>>>> in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a > concrete > >>>>> socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other > >>>>> parties we enjoy. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very > >>>> reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*. > >>>> > >>>> Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban > >>>> Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms: > >>>> > >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon > >>>> Insulting term for a black person > >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo > >>>> An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the > >>>> meaning of the picture. Usually found in captions. > >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat > >>>> The definitive pet. > >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog > >>>> Not a cat > >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox > >>>> A beautiful and attractive woman > >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale > >>>> noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by > >>>> a casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more > money. > >>>> > >>>> Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one. > >>>> > >>>> *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib > >>>> is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original > >>>> intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's > interpretation. > >>>> Look this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of > >>>> the author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author): > >>>> > >>>> In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and > >>>>> criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their > political > >>>>> views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other > >>>>> biographical or personal attributes?to distill meaning from the > author's > >>>>> work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the > author > >>>>> serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this > method > >>>>> of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually > sloppy and > >>>>> flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding > >>>>> interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text". > >>>>> > >>>>> [...] > >>>>> > >>>>> In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and > >>>>> textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of > quotations", > >>>>> drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one, > >>>>> individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the > >>>>> impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of > the > >>>>> writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, > "but in > >>>>> its destination", or its audience. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be > >>>> around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author > intends > >>>> is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get > away > >>>> from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be > visible and > >>>> enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the > system you > >>>> are attempting to criticize. > >>>> > >>>> Intent does not matter. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Riddle me this: > >>>>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE > WRITE > >>>>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that > we > >>>>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value > >>>>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software > systems) > >>>>> that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is > this > >>>>> all brought back to a "reasonble default"? > >>>>> > >>>>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound > >>>>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly > >>>>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up > >>>>> eventualy going. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in > >>>> this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that > >>>> *raccoon* was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that > >>>> other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same > is > >>>> downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on > explaining > >>>> every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you > have > >>>> taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you > die > >>>> on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of > how > >>>> much windmill tilting you'll get into. > >>>> > >>>> If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it > >>>> crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail > >>>> early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to > correct > >>>> corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid > ass > >>>> project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck > trying to > >>>> handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it > this > >>>> way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW > >>>> Flippancy.* Loic brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make > >>>> a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that > made any > >>>> difference the moment this gets out of here. > >>>> > >>>> If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking > >>>> place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning > sign > >>>> to you? > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> erlang-questions mailing list > >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> erlang-questions mailing list > >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> With best regards, > >> Roman Galeev, > >> +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> erlang-questions mailing list > >> erlang-questions@REDACTED > >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > *Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya > > >That > > tall bald Indian guy..* > > *Twitter | Blog > > | G+ > > | LinkedIn > > * > > _______________________________________________ > > erlang-questions mailing list > > erlang-questions@REDACTED > > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: 20180213/fbabb381/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > > End of erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 10 > ************************************************* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From federico.carrone@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 02:06:54 2018 From: federico.carrone@REDACTED (Federico Carrone) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 22:06:54 -0300 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> <2baf89c9-7bbc-23c3-1065-a36c96fa8bdf@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: I am from Sudam?rica and I did not know what coon meant. If the author was not aware of what it meant, then he can change it now or at least add some context in the readme explaining why he chose the word. Also, I have already reported the repository to GitHub. We live in a complicated world. Most people don?t have the opportunities we do. Let?s try to make it better instead of complicating it even more. Regards, Federico. > On Feb 12, 2018, at 9:59 PM, Stefan Strigler wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:49 AM Lo?c Hoguin > wrote: > Great email, thanks. I'll just comment on one point which is very often > forgotten, especially in the crazy days we currently live in. > > We DON'T live in crazy days. It's just people like you who make them seem like crazy days over and over again. And in the end it's just your kind who makes them seem crazy because all YOU are after is VICTIMISING yourself but in realitiy YOU ARE the PERPETRATORS. > > Just that you can't believe that because things are not working out the way you though out. You think things should work out better for you and just because they don't you're upset. HEY! Welcome to our world, losers! > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keam7095@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 03:48:30 2018 From: keam7095@REDACTED (Hakim Fajardo) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 21:48:30 -0500 Subject: [erlang-questions] Why Learn Elixir if it's built on Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang? Message-ID: I've been spending time teaching my self Elixir and Erlang. But I can't help but ask why learn Elixir if's built on top of Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang. I enjoy learning both but what's the point? I find myself constantly referring back to the Erlang Manual to understand Elixir. It feels redundant. Any experienced Erlang/Elixir users have thoughts? Best, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zxq9@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 06:04:09 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 14:04:09 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Why Learn Elixir if it's built on Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4220945.qRf5leUyL8@burrito> On 2018?2?12? ??? 21:48:30 Hakim Fajardo wrote: > I've been spending time teaching my self Elixir and Erlang. But I can't > help but ask why learn Elixir if's built on top of Erlang? Why not just > learn Erlang. I enjoy learning both but what's the point? > > I find myself constantly referring back to the Erlang Manual to understand > Elixir. It feels redundant. > > Any experienced Erlang/Elixir users have thoughts? Hi, Hakim. Having worked in both, I emphatically prefer Erlang as a language. It still has some warts, but they aren't metastasizing the way such things so commonly do in other languages. In this respect I view Erlang's extremely slowing changing nature as a language to be one of its greatest features. It is a small language and looks like it will remain so. The tooling that Elixir has built around it is more convenient, though. That said, the importance of "convenient tooling" drops dramatically as a project's size goes up. I'm hoping to bring some tools out for Erlang that bridge the tooling gap at least a little, but I'm not quite there yet (real life keeps getting in the way). My 2c. -Craig From sashang@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 07:08:06 2018 From: sashang@REDACTED (Sashan Govender) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 06:08:06 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: <20180213011544.GA17972@ferdmbp.local> References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> <20180213011544.GA17972@ferdmbp.local> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:16 PM Fred Hebert wrote: > On 02/13, Sashan Govender wrote: > >I think you just need to tolerate different cultures better. A word that > is > >deemed racist in one culture isn't the same in another. > > > > This is wrong. This is a classical bad argument that is related to the > *paradox of intolerance*. No, the paradox of intolerance was not what I was trying for. I really meant tolerate, as in actually accept that someone else will not have the same connotations with the word 'coon' as you might. Furthermore expecting them to elevate it to the same level of morality as your own is somewhat imperialistic and arrogant. I'll have to explain further because otherwise I doubt you'll be able to see where I'm coming from and my initial post was probably too brief. I'll explain 1) how I learnt to tolerate different interpretations and of words and 2) why 'coon' will never hold any significance as a 'bad word' in my heart. I grew up in apartheid South Africa. This was a system of government that legitimised racist laws. It dictated where you could live, where you went to school, where you could own businesses and which jobs you got. My parents were more affected by the imposed inequalities than I was since I was at school at the time and being a kid, normal was what the world in front of you was. My ancestors were the ones that worked as slaves in the farms or mines or railroads.You got used to not being allowed in certain restaurants and malls. Some places were off limits to us (like the Orange Free State, a province in the country) where we could not stay overnight but only pass through. When with my dad, we were walking across a beach but kicked off and told to walk around because it was white only. They wanted to move flats once and were told that only whites were allowed in the complex. I've been mocked and called racial slurs, served last in queues, talked down to. Bad words over there are 'kaffir' and 'coolie'. They're highly offensive words and given the nature of violence in that country, it's something you could be killed over. For me those words carry more significance than 'coon' ever will. It does not make sense to me to ever elevate 'coon' to the status of 'kaffir' or 'coolie'. It really can't carry the same emotional weight for me as it would for someone from North America. If it did it would be insulting to my heritage and my identity. Moreover I reject having it imposed on me that I should feel the same way about that word as a North American would. When I moved to NZ it was quite clear that those same words that were insulting in South Africa didn't carry over. Both countries speak English but the cultures are different, although SA has more languages. I noticed that there's there is a product called 'kaffir lime' grocery stores everywhere. Imagine having 'n...ga lime' in American/Canadian grocery stores. I got used to it after a while and it really doesn't bother me anymore. Instead of shouting out about the use of the word 'kaffir' in their product, I understood that different countries use words differently, and expecting NZ to change for me to accommodate my sensitivities would have been stupid. > Unless I am simply unaware of it, there is no > English-speaking culture for which the word 'coon' (and not just > 'raccoon') is somehow a very important concept integral to their > culture, such that not using it would be oppressive in some way. > > In any case, the paradox of intolerance goes like this: > > > Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we > > extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are > > not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the > > intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with > > them. > > You can't just go and honestly try to make the argument that > purposefully using a term that is deemed racist by most of the > anglosphere is somehow cool and good because another unnamed culture > probably sees no problem about it. How is that in any way reasonable? > > It's a North Americanism that's been propagated. Moreover, without a doubt, the majority of English speaking groups don't attach the same emotional baggage to it that North Americans seem to. Quite happy rejecting it for aforementioned reasons. I really don't want to absorb the cultural misgivings North Americans have. I don't appreciate North Americans pushing their cultural sensitivities onto other groups as well expecting me to feel the same. That's just wrong, as I explained before. I really can't physically absorb at an emotional and gut level, the significance you might attach to the word, simply because I haven't lived in your culture. > > >There are many other uses for coon. > >Maine Coon is a type of cat. > >Coon is type of cheese in Australia. Go on - tell all of Australia to stop > >eating coon. > > > > The tool is called 'coon', not 'Maine coon', and it is not called 'coon > (cheese)'. It's not called 'raccoon', and it does not have a single > raccoon image. Instead you have commands like 'coon build', 'coon > release', and a hosting site like 'coonhub'. > > And that some cheese brand uses the name does not mean it's any decent > idea for a programming tool. What the hell of a kind of logic leap is > that? Are you unable to see context as worthwhile or to imagine that > someone might think "this is the racist term" more easily than "this is > clearly a reference to cheese" > > > This can't be anything but bad faith. This is not really the topic on > which to argue as a sport. > > >Next you'll be telling me to rethink the use of the work 'monkey' or > >'gorrilla' for a library. Where does it end? > > > > It ends with respectfully not trying to piss off entire segments of the > human race with shitty naming strategies that have very obvious racist > overtones, as soon as you learn what their meaning is. Everyone is > allowed to make mistakes, but if you double- and triple-down on it, you > deserve the shitstorm coming your way from public backlash. Hands down. > > I think only you will be pissed off. I somehow manage to walk into a grocery store and buy 'kaffir lime' leaves and not fall apart in a tears of outrage. And I'm black. Go figure. > I'm sorry that using racist terms is somehow integral to your > appreciation of programming libraries, but *not* using racist terms is > somehow integral to my appreciation of programming communities. > > It seems we're in a quandary here, so I'll refer to the conclusion to > the paradox of intolerance that follows the earlier quote: "We should > therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the > intolerant." > > so gently piss off. > > You don't know me however you managed to assume a lot about me from 'bad faith' to racist terms being integral to my appreciation of libraries. Not sure how you manage that. Probably comes from your expectation that everyone must see the word 'coon' as you do. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jose.valim@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 08:28:32 2018 From: jose.valim@REDACTED (=?UTF-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9_Valim?=) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 08:28:32 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Why Learn Elixir if it's built on Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The important parts: concurrency, distribution, fault tolerance, etc will be mostly the same, regardless of your choice. After you learn those concepts, moving from one to another should be straight-forward and they interoperate fairly well. So pick whatever makes you more productive and enthusiastic while learning. In any case, if there are parts in the Elixir documentation that are vague or unclear, we would appreciate if those reported. The same applies to the Erlang/OTP documentation too. Enjoy! *Jos? Valimwww.plataformatec.com.br Founder and Director of R&D* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zxq9@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 08:37:11 2018 From: zxq9@REDACTED (zxq9@REDACTED) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:37:11 +0900 Subject: [erlang-questions] Why Learn Elixir if it's built on Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30372074.FfqsybqdWQ@takoyaki> On 2018?2?13???? 8?28?32? JST Jos? Valim wrote: > The important parts: concurrency, distribution, fault tolerance, etc will > be mostly the same... > ...and they interoperate fairly well. This is something I forgot to mention. Aside from the Elixir environment being a bit of a large dependency, they interoperate VERY well. Quite a nice end result, however you get there. The same goes for LFE (at least in my experience so far). It is really lovely what has happened. Even if I don't particularly care for lang X or Y so much, it doesn't really matter. I've had a much better time getting Erlang-family languages to play well together than, say, some combinations of JVM languages. That's really something. -Craig From bchesneau@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 08:49:57 2018 From: bchesneau@REDACTED (Benoit Chesneau) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 08:49:57 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2108320.hS62LuCCeF@takoyaki> <2baf89c9-7bbc-23c3-1065-a36c96fa8bdf@ninenines.eu> Message-ID: <29CB7E97-3E9B-4C51-89E5-253E6465A552@gmail.com> actually that you that put the victime label on what it is said. Like some labeled others as white, racist without making it contextual and use that label without arguing much, just as a matter to close the discussion or dismissing the author. Noted some use slang terms as their usual vocabulary, and in some cultures it has a bad meaning. Noted that the author had no intent to use that meaning. Notrd that in the language and some cultures coon has not that bad meaning . And in any vocabulary a term can have a bad meaning in some contexts. most of the words yes. in any language. Now that we all know that, that the author that have been notified (in such aggressive way by some) it is his matter. can we stop that thread that has nothing related to the lib. The naming could have just been handled privately... Personally i?m getting tired of this public labeling. Beno?t. > On 13 Feb 2018, at 02:12, Stefan Strigler wrote: > > > >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:49 AM Lo?c Hoguin wrote: >> >> That's not to say the OP has Asperger or other[1]. But the outraged >> response from some people presumably does not take this into account. >> Being offended or outraged at someone for being insensitive is one >> thing, assuming they are malevolent is another. The world would be a >> much better place if we all tried to assume no ill intent from people we >> interact with when we think they are wrong. There's enough malevolence >> in the world that we do not need to seek it in everyone. >> > > You're taking quite a stretch here and I think it's just despicable. The outraged response is less about the original post than about the /community/ wide response. And you are playing a central role there. > > Side note: I know a few people with aforementioned diagnosis and I can just tell you: Shut up! You are abusive at that point. Just don't! > > So, show me a single post that incurred malevolence. The ones I've found were all about pointing out a single glitch. Nobody ever said the bad name was by intention. > > You are playing the victim card while never being the offender nor the actual victim? Don't you think that's suspicious? > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marc@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 09:15:53 2018 From: marc@REDACTED (Marc Worrell) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 09:15:53 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] [ANN] Zotonic release 0.36 Message-ID: <043B3830-0FF8-4FC6-A31F-8459FCA51FB8@worrell.nl> Hi, We have release Zotonic version 0.36. This release is a maintenance release, part of our regular monthly release schedule. Most development is now done on the 1.0dev version (master branch). You can download the 0.x release at the usual place: https://github.com/zotonic/zotonic/releases Main changes are: ? Added support for BCE dates and era element (#1869, #1865). ? Added compatibility with Erlang/OTP 20 (#1864). ? Fixed parse error in search queries (#1854). ? Fixed empty image alt tag (#1868). Full release notes on the url above. - The Zotonic Team -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aseigo@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 09:25:42 2018 From: aseigo@REDACTED (Aaron Seigo) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 09:25:42 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Why Learn Elixir if it's built on Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6898b3717ac699c8de2fe47c56332991@mykolab.com> On 2018-02-13 03:48, Hakim Fajardo wrote: > I've been spending time teaching my self Elixir and Erlang. But I can't help but ask why learn Elixir if's built on top of Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang. I enjoy learning both but what's the point? I really enjoy both languages for being the mix of pragmatic FP and the wonder that is OTP that they are. So it is easy to understand how people fall into liking one or the other language more: the important stuff is common, it's the details that make up the differences. There are things that Elixir brings with it, though, that are hard to replicate with Erlang on its own. There are lots of little things (like multiple modules in the same file, not having to name source files after modules, and visibility of functions attached to the function definition; all products of the times when Elixir and Erlang were "born") which probably aren't enough on their own to really warrant making a choice. The big things that do make the difference, at least for me, include the tooling (which is hands-down nicer in Elixir, even though rebar3 with hex.pm support has helped a bit), testing framework, macros, the more pleasant APIs (compare Erlang's map with Elixir's Map, for instance), and the libraries / projects like Ecto, Phoenix, Flow, Nerves, ... I still use a lot of pure-Erlang libraries (so many good things! :), but many of the nicer Elixir libraries would be hard to replicate with pure Erlang. Ecto and Plug are good examples as they both rely on macros quite a bit to make them as easy to use while remaining powerful. So, for me, that's the reason to use Elixir. Being able to use Erlang code with Elixir code is a pure godsend, though, and I still write Erlang where it makes sense to do so :) -- Aaron -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Oliver.Korpilla@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 09:28:10 2018 From: Oliver.Korpilla@REDACTED (Oliver Korpilla) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 09:28:10 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Why Learn Elixir if it's built on Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, Hakim. At my workplace I did a 1 1/2 year project in elixir that eventually grew to have a few dozen developers in it. This was in the 2016/2017 timeframe. I was actually the one who evaluated first Erlang, then elixir and then chose elixir. The reason was simple: The syntax was a big driver of adoption and teaching it to other people. We had way more problems with Erlang syntax and quirks than we had with some of the choices made in elixir's language design. In a workplace where Python is common knowledge and often Ruby is, too, I simply had an easier time convincing people to adopt the less "alien-looking" elixir. Your mileage may of course differ. I personally feel very at home with elixir constructs like the Pipe operator to structure my code and make it more readable. The closer a language gets to write to how I think, the better. We also had people wanting to experiment in reactive patterns, etc. Adopting elixir also had its quirks, too, of course. It took me quite a while to find some things documented, I was figuring out myself how to reuse gen_fsm state machines because there was no "elixir-ism" layered over it. I indeed kept referring back to the extensive Erlang and OTP documentation all the time. (We eventually adopted elixir 1.3 as our final version.) mix, elixir's build tool, did what we wanted and I eventually came to appreciate distillery as well. I must admit we practically made no use of features like elixir macros because I always ran into trouble when trying to do that. Having a basic proficiency with Lisp macros I still struggled with how elixir was doing it and ran into unexpected snags there, eventually giving up on it. I have to admit, it was not really missed. In some cases, libraries relying on macros to build their basic constructs could be harder to understand, even though we used only very basic ones like the "amnesia" wrapper around Mnesia. Being able to mix (ha!) elixir with Erlang was a big boon because you could always fall back to Erlang if that was easier or needed. Erlang was like a conservative (in the adopting of features sense) base on which we started using newer elixir features where more experimenting with broadening the language were done. When it came to the underlying BEAM infrastructure one will always refer back to the documentation at the Erlang pages, and sometimes things can be harder to find because first you have to find out what of Erlang's feature set you access how from the elixir/mix/distillery amalgam. The project is still an example to many of us how rapidly a complex networked application can be built and changed when leveraging OTP. It still excels in many features over its successor - which was built in C++. A management decision. Sigh. Some of us are still trying to apply the lessons learned from that project into our work today. Hope this helps, Oliver ? Gesendet:?Dienstag, 13. Februar 2018 um 03:48 Uhr Von:?"Hakim Fajardo" An:?"Erlang/OTP discussions" Betreff:?[erlang-questions] Why Learn Elixir if it's built on Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang? I've been spending time teaching my self Elixir and Erlang. But I can't help but ask why learn Elixir if's built on top of Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang. I enjoy learning both but what's the point?? ? I find myself constantly referring back to the Erlang Manual to understand Elixir. It feels redundant.? ? Any experienced Erlang/Elixir users have thoughts? ? Best,_______________________________________________ erlang-questions mailing list erlang-questions@REDACTED http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions From gordon@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 09:25:28 2018 From: gordon@REDACTED (Gordon Guthrie) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 08:25:28 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Why Learn Elixir if it's built on Erlang? Why not just learn Erlang? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hakim Depends on your use case - Elixir, with its macros and all, is designed to make some things super easy, things that you might to again and again - building web sites, apis, back-ends to apps... The cost side of that is that you have to invest time in learning how Phoenix (for example) works and your code is harder to read - you need to dig around to find out how stuff does what... Erlang itself is a much smaller language - but the tooling is way behind Elixir, so horses for courses. Gordon On 13 February 2018 at 07:28, Jos? Valim wrote: > The important parts: concurrency, distribution, fault tolerance, etc will > be mostly the same, regardless of your choice. After you learn those > concepts, moving from one to another should be straight-forward and they > interoperate fairly well. > > So pick whatever makes you more productive and enthusiastic while learning. > > In any case, if there are parts in the Elixir documentation that are vague > or unclear, we would appreciate if those reported. The same applies to the > Erlang/OTP documentation too. > > Enjoy! > > *Jos? Valimwww.plataformatec.com.br > Founder and Director of R&D* > > > _______________________________________________ > erlang-questions mailing list > erlang-questions@REDACTED > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions > > -- --- Gordon Guthrie @gordonguthrie +44 (0) 7776 251669 (in Bonnie Scotland!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 10:55:55 2018 From: jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED (Jesper Louis Andersen) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 09:55:55 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:36 PM Vlad Dumitrescu wrote: [...Checksums...] Am I misunderstanding something? > > I don't think you are misunderstanding anything. To a certain extent, our advocacy is about making a content addressable store be the bottom layer in the package manager, and then have a naming layer on top of this: * Cryptographic checksums have integrity. I don't have to trust the package repository and thus the repository can be mirrored. They are also way easier to sign. * Essentially, a package manager should work like git does in the underlying layer. * A package rename does not change its checksum. Rebar[0] doesn't seem to be able to understand this. * A package cannot be removed by checksum. It can be removed by name, but if a repository keeps the checksum alive, it is for all senses and purposes accessible. * The checksums are the identifier and the name is simply a human-readable attachment. This is important since it avoids a lot of the social interactions which occur on top of packages and decouples it from technicality to some extent. * You can easily create name spaces on top. This is highly important as we can see in many cases: You may want company-overrides, you might develop a package in your own namespace as a fork, you might prepare to take over an official package on the side and only flip the name at a later stage. And you can easily use a name such as racoon twice if need be. * The scheme amends itself to something like Conex[1], in which you don't have to trust the package repository. Conex also makes the distinction between package authors and repository janitors. The latter should have the ability to override certain aspects of packages (for instance version compability rules) without altering the underlying source code (such that it is still verifiable). That said: As Tom Santero mentioned already, any new package manager has to explain why it is different and/or better than Rebar3/hex.pm/erlang.mk. And in hindsightm, an announcement, name not included, ought to make this point and hammer it in. In short "why do I want to use your package manager over the existing ones?" In my experience, it is far better if you take existing systems and gradually refactor them. Or you work with them rather than against them. Rebar3 screams to the world that it wants to be modular to a greater extent. It is trying to solve 3-4 problems at the same time, which is usually a recipe for long-term disaster. As you can't replace individual parts, development will slow over time. Hex.pm wants to the be little sister of npm. This is not a bad idea per se as an initial design. Yet, that doesn't move us toward a better package manager ecosystem. Finally erlang.mk tries to be too much at once, even though I think it is the best manager out there by far from an engineering perspective (it helps that it has had few authors so their vision is far more aligned). So the right course of action is to first make the case for a couple of refactorings in existing projects. Then, when those refactorings are done, you can start working on the improvements. But getting people aligned on your vision is important here. Otherwise, other programmers will be destroying your work at a much greater pace than you can fix it. [0] Rebar has had many iterations, and started in a different spot, so it is by no means a critique. Different designs lead to different solutions. [1] https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~hm519/ocaml2016.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 11:13:42 2018 From: jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED (Jesper Louis Andersen) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 10:13:42 +0000 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2E5EC744-5749-4960-9D5C-FB8E6EB14BD5@waisbrot.net> <1580714.F3vy7c9jq9@takoyaki> <876072tc77.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:38 AM Stefan Strigler wrote: > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:01 PM Jesper Louis Andersen < > jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > >> There is also "Maine Coon", which is a cat breed. >> > > And there is also me who thinks you CAN NOT be serious. I mean seriously > WTF? > FWIW, you should read my statement as a defense of Valery, not as an endorsement of the name choice. As in: unless you happen to sit with the deeper understanding of American slang, you are unlikely to grasp this. I don't think it is fair to expect people to know the intricacies of another culture or language to its fullest extent, so I'm fully expecting mistakes to be made in that regard. However, once you know a name has certain connotations, the right course of action is to make an evaluation based on the new information and then eventually change the name. Etymology can also play a role, and when you port a word from one culture to another, it might gain or lose connotation. This can make it especially hard to navigate the reef. As an example, the word "robot", which is usually seen as fairly innocent, stems from the Czech "robotnik" which means "forced worker". If you continue the path, you end up with "slave" and then you have the origin for the "master/slave" connotation often used in engineering (originally for train locomotives). There has been a push recently to change "master/slave" into e.g., "leader/follower" or "primary/secondary". But curiously, rather little time has been spent on "robot", even though the origin is the same. Treacherous waters indeed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vladdu55@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 11:16:14 2018 From: vladdu55@REDACTED (Vlad Dumitrescu) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 11:16:14 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:55 AM, Jesper Louis Andersen < jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote: > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:36 PM Vlad Dumitrescu > wrote: > > [...Checksums...] > > Am I misunderstanding something? >> >> > I don't think you are misunderstanding anything. To a certain extent, our > advocacy is about making a content addressable store be the bottom layer in > the package manager, and then have a naming layer on top of this: > > * Cryptographic checksums have integrity. I don't have to trust the > package repository and thus the repository can be mirrored. They are also > way easier to sign. > > * Essentially, a package manager should work like git does in the > underlying layer. > > * A package rename does not change its checksum. Rebar[0] doesn't seem to > be able to understand this. > > * A package cannot be removed by checksum. It can be removed by name, but > if a repository keeps the checksum alive, it is for all senses and purposes > accessible. > > * The checksums are the identifier and the name is simply a human-readable > attachment. This is important since it avoids a lot of the social > interactions which occur on top of packages and decouples it from > technicality to some extent. > > * You can easily create name spaces on top. This is highly important as we > can see in many cases: You may want company-overrides, you might develop a > package in your own namespace as a fork, you might prepare to take over an > official package on the side and only flip the name at a later stage. And > you can easily use a name such as racoon twice if need be. > > * The scheme amends itself to something like Conex[1], in which you don't > have to trust the package repository. Conex also makes the distinction > between package authors and repository janitors. The latter should have the > ability to override certain aspects of packages (for instance version > compability rules) without altering the underlying source code (such that > it is still verifiable). > Thank you for the detailed explanation. I was looking at it from the human user's perspective. best regards, Vlad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erlang@REDACTED Tue Feb 13 12:30:06 2018 From: erlang@REDACTED (Joe Armstrong) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 12:30:06 +0100 Subject: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services In-Reply-To: References: <2713817.h8SfDXM89s@takoyaki> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:36 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:58 PM, Joe Armstrong wrote: >> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu >> wrote: >> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen >> > wrote: >> >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name >> >> to >> >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of >> >> headaches >> >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages. >> >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. >> >> As >> >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 >> >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages". >> >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, >> >> why >> >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a >> >> content-addressable-store for your packages. >> > >> > >> > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a >> > package >> > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list >> > of >> > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names >> > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package >> > is >> > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a >> > reference points. >> >> The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of >> names - this list of >> checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package). >> >> A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different >> human readable names >> are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum. >> >> Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly >> obvious reasons of >> convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or >> appropriate. >> >> For a given content the checksum is unique. >> >> To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of >> >> {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of >> the checksum over time > > > Thanks for the explanation, I understand the mechanics, but not the "real > world usage". > > * A checksum referes to a {package_name, time} tuple, so there is no way to > refer to the package in general. Except by its name. > > * Even if there was, nobody is going to say "For a gizmo processing library, > we have to choose between > B17556DB683000BA50370B16C0619DF1337E7AF7ECBF7D64FBF8D1D6BCE3109B and > 7ACC7D785B5ABE8A6E9ADBDE926A24E481F29956DD8B4DF49E3E4E7BCC92A018, which one > is better?" So people will use names. Given the hash you just have to look up in a database to find the associated meta-data You might find that B17556DB683000BA50370B16C0619DF1337E7AF7ECBF7D64FBF8D1D6BCE3109B was created on by key originally called at