[erlang-questions] Erlang for youngsters

Fri Jun 20 16:17:10 CEST 2014

 > I have a nine year old whose life exists almost exclusively of
 > Minecraft. It's disturbing. ...

Same here.  I've tried to promote Minetest (C++ & Lua, better design, 
open-source and consequently better community), but to no avail.

 > I'll personally be crushed if "def ... end" turns out to be more
 > understandable for young learners.

A study would be interesting that compared word-like terms to symbolic 
terms in programming languages that are otherwise identical, e.g., "do 
<...> end" vs "-> <...> ."  A word-heavy PL would obviously better suit 
an imperative style "do this then do that", a symbol heavy PL more like 
maths.  This would probably be reflected in which children prefer which 
PL.  However, you'd have to find a neutral, non-leading way to present 
the PLs.

Ivan

On 20/06/2014 14:26, Garrett Smith wrote:
> This feels healthy to me.
>
> I would like to test this, personally. I think we can all learn from
> trying to teach -- first hand experience is better than... what was
> that word again? Conject...
>
> I'll see if the Chicago User Group can put together a meeting
> specifically to look at this topic. While it's not kids in the room,
> our community in Chicago is very thoughtful and very polyglot. We'll
> get some data.
>
> I have a nine year old whose life exists almost exclusively of
> Minecraft. It's disturbing. But I think I can get him to learn some
> programming skills through this. I'll be interested to see what he
> thinks of this stuff. Somehow I see him getting scarred for life, but
> I'll at least learn something from it.
>
> But back to this topic of languages... Elixir and its community
> represent a great opportunity to learn. I agree whole heartedly with
> Peer that Erlang itself should take important steps to improve its
> rate of adoption. I agree that we should not concede usability,
> grokability, awesomeness to Elixir. But Darach's point on diversity
> trumps all of this. IMO we need to try stuff, even if that stuff is
> wrong. Rejecting something is just as valuable as accepting something,
> assuming you understand clearly why you reject.
>
> I'll personally be crushed if "def ... end" turns out to be more
> understandable for young learners. Crushed. But I don't see the harm
> in measuring.
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Peer Stritzinger <peerst@REDACTED> wrote:
>> Oh I fully admit I just wrote conjectures myself.  Thats what I intended to.
>>
>>
>> Also I don't say that the Elixir community should try out teaching Elixir to
>> children.
>>
>>
>> I just don't see any value for the Erlang community in this and I personally
>> have the opinion that Erlang is easier to learn as first language than
>> Elixir.   The thread started triggered by Garetts talk about what needs to
>> be improved about Erlang and its community.
>>
>>
>> To get more inflow into the Erlang community one way was suggested be to
>> teach kids Erlang or something more kid friendly based on Erlang.
>>
>>
>> Then all kinds of opinion is stated that we should teach kids Elixir because
>> somehow people think its clear to be easier learnt by children than Erlang
>> which kind of irks me because I totally don't get why that shoud be true.
>> But somehow its thought "obvious".
>>
>>
>> So moving back to the initial questions Garett looked at in his talk.
>>
>>
>> If teaching Elixir to kids is the solution to rescue the Erlang community,
>> can anyone please explain to me how that is going to work out for Erlang?
>> For me its say, ok Erlang is screwed anyway and we should just give up and
>> hand over anything to Elixir.  Which probably wouldn't do so well if Erlang
>> dies off and the VM is no longer actively developed.
>>
>>
>> Fortunately this is not going to happen soon since Ericson and a bunch of
>> others are busy making money from using Erlang.
>>
>>
>> But what does this make of Garetts findings?
>>
>>
>> Look at them, shrug and teach kids Elixir?
>>
>>
>> Maybe one of the problems of the Erlang community is that we have low self
>> esteem?  If all solutions we can think of is moving away from Erlang.
>>
>>
>> On 2014-06-20 10:28:47 +0000, José Valim said:
>>
>>
>> This thread would be much more interesting without all the unproven
>> conjectures that Elixir is obviously the better choice to teach to children.
>>
>> Peer, why not hold your e-mails to the same criteria you expect from the
>> whole thread? Btw, a conjecture is by definition unproven.
>>
>> I disagree.  Elixir is a much worse choice to teach to children, because its
>> not a simple language anmore.
>>
>> Conjecture.
>>
>>
>> No not a conjecure even: opinion I would rather say, clearly indicated by
>> the intro "I disagree"
>>
>>
>> Experience comes with time and trying. If nobody tries, we will never know.
>>
>>
>> By all means do!
>>
>>
>> Also if you are saying Elixir is "just Ruby" then why not count all the
>> initiatives that actually teach Ruby to children in its favor?
>>
>>
>> Didn' say "Elixir is just Ruby" and won't ever because it clearly isn't.
>>
>>
>> I said I see it easier to learn for someone comming from a Ruby background.
>>
>>
>>
>> * http://ruby4kids.com/ruby4kids
>>
>> * http://www.kidsruby.com
>>
>>
>> I have been to Ruby conferences where we had rooms full of children being
>> taught Ruby. Or should they all be considered the devil's work and the
>> teachers burned at the stake?
>>
>>
>> Of course not and I don't see what this has to do with the discussion.
>>
>>
>> Except ask ourself: where are those rooms full of children at the Erlang
>> conferences?
>>
>>
>> Elixir is mainly appealing to either people comming from Ruby or just for
>> pop culture value (as is Ruby itself).
>>
>> Conjecture(s).
>>
>>
>> No, opinion.
>>
>>
>> What advantage does metaprogramming have for teaching kids?
>>
>> Yes, I bet the second chapter of a future "Elixir for Kids" book is about
>> meta-programming.
>>
>>
>> Well besides the different syntax, metaprogramming is whats sold as one
>> Elixirs advantages isn't it?
>>
>>
>> So if we ignore metaprogramming because it woun't be taught in this "Elixir
>> for Kids" book all that remains as difference is the syntax.
>>
>>
>> So the question is which syntax is easier to teach to someone with no
>> background in other programming language syntax and why do people think
>> Elixirs is easier for kids than Erlang?
>>
>>
>> ========
>>
>>
>> Note I am not saying at any point that Elixir is better or worse. I would be
>> glad to see people trying and kids playing with it.
>>
>>
>> I won't mind whatever language my kid chooses when learning to program, I'll
>> just be happy he's doing it. I got really interested in programming with
>> ActionScript because at the time I was playing with creating animations in
>> Macromedia Flash and then I found out I could really do a lot of interesting
>> stuff by using a programming language instead of relying on the GUI. I
>> didn't care if the language was functional, OO, the syntax it used for
>> defining functions, or whatever.
>>
>>
>> The worst we could do to future programmers is to actually ingrain the idea
>> there is one true solution in software.
>>
>>
>> There we definitely agree.
>>
>>
>> Its hypothetical anyway because who in the Erlang community would actually
>> build this Erlang for Kids thing?  Who wants to put in the resources?  Where
>> is our Lifelong Kindergarden with Erlang MIT Media lab like thing?
>>
>>
>>
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Ivan A. Uemlianin PhD
Llaisdy
Speech Technology Research and Development

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