[erlang-questions] Random behaviour

Tue Sep 7 15:54:50 CEST 2010

Hi,

Shouldn't the link read "http://github.com/jj1bdx/sfmt-erlang" ?

By the way, regarding that seeding: how could it be performed reliably 
without the crypto module? I believe that crypto needs libssl which may 
not be available on some platforms. Any idea?

On a side note, maybe a neat addition around sfmt would be to provide a 
function which performs an efficient uniform shuffle of a user-specified 
list (linked to the "Speedy unsort" discussion, 
http://groups.google.com/group/erlang-programming/browse_thread/thread/ff5c9d88f78e2456). 
Unless it would be too far stretched from the purpose of such a library?

Thanks in advance for any hint,

Olivier Boudeville.
---------------------------
Olivier Boudeville

EDF R&D : 1, avenue du Général de Gaulle, 92140 Clamart, France
Département SINETICS, groupe ASICS (I2A), bureau B-226
Office : +33 1 47 65 59 58 / Mobile : +33 6 16 83 37 22 / Fax : +33 1 47 
65 27 13

kenji.rikitake@REDACTED 
Envoyé par : erlang-questions@REDACTED
07/09/2010 07:15

A
ttom.kelly@REDACTED
cc
erlang-questions@REDACTED
Objet
Re: [erlang-questions] Random behaviour

And you can try another PRNG module of SIMD-oriented Fast Mersenne
Twister at
http://github.com/jj1bdx/sfmt/
(I'm the code maintainer so give it a try and let me know how it works)

Note: you still need an individual seeding per process as described
below.  My preference is to seed the generator frequently with
crypto:rand_bytes/1.

Kenji Rikitake

In the message 
<AANLkTimetoAZJ5+kyg9tr2hvD3F0khKW=WYLpvLaCYUo@REDACTED>
dated Mon, Sep 06, 2010 at 01:39:26PM +0800,
Bob Ippolito <bob@REDACTED> writes:
> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 13:39:50 +0800
> From: Bob Ippolito <bob@REDACTED>
> Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Random behaviour
> To: John Hughes <john.hughes@REDACTED>
> Cc: tom kelly <ttom.kelly@REDACTED>, erlang-questions@REDACTED
> 
> You might also want to look at the crypto module for generating random
> numbers instead of the random module. The random module uses an
> ancient algorithm and has issues with seeding (as you have noticed).
> 
> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 1:26 PM, John Hughes <john.hughes@REDACTED> 
wrote:
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > Every Erlang process has its own random number seed, and it's 
initialised to a CONSTANT value when the process starts! Hence given
> >
> > foo() ->
> > ?? ??io:format("~p\n",[[random:uniform(10) || _ <- lists:seq(1,10)]]).
> >
> > then you get different values from multiple calls in the SAME process:
> >
> > 2> foo:foo().
> > [1,5,8,10,6,4,6,10,7,5]
> > ok
> > 3> foo:foo().
> > [6,2,3,7,2,6,3,5,5,1]
> > ok
> > 4> foo:foo().
> > [6,5,5,4,1,6,10,4,2,3]
> > ok
> >
> > but the same value every time in a NEW process:
> >
> > 5> spawn(foo,foo,[]).
> > [1,5,8,10,6,4,6,10,7,5]
> > <0.45.0>
> > 6> spawn(foo,foo,[]).
> > [1,5,8,10,6,4,6,10,7,5]
> > <0.47.0>
> > 7> spawn(foo,foo,[]).
> > [1,5,8,10,6,4,6,10,7,5]
> > <0.49.0>
> >
> > I guess it makes sense--you don't want to pay the price of 
initialising a random number seed every time you start a process--but it 
is a bit of a gotcha.
> >
> > If you want different random numbers in different processes (which you 
usually do), then you need to initialise the seed differently when you 
start the process. The usual trick is to use now(), since a seed just 
happens to be three integers:
> >
> > baz() ->
> > ?? ??{A,B,C} = now(),
> > ?? ??random:seed(A,B,C),
> > ?? ??foo().
> >
> > and now
> >
> > 10> spawn(foo,baz,[]).
> > [10,7,9,4,7,1,4,8,3,6]
> > <0.61.0>
> > 11> spawn(foo,baz,[]).
> > [10,5,1,6,5,5,9,3,6,2]
> > <0.63.0>
> > 12> spawn(foo,baz,[]).
> > [8,7,9,7,9,6,1,9,4,3]
> > <0.65.0>
> >
> > One thing to be aware of is that calls to now() close together in time 
give you seeds the initially generate similar numbers:
> >
> > 13> spawn(foo,baz,[]),spawn(foo,baz,[]).
> > [10,1,8,1,8,1,8,10,1,9]
> > [10,1,7,1,6,5,7,8,8,2]
> > <0.68.0>
> > 14> spawn(foo,baz,[]),spawn(foo,baz,[]).
> > [5,9,8,2,2,3,3,9,5,8]
> > [5,9,7,2,9,6,2,7,2,1]
> > <0.71.0>
> > 15> spawn(foo,baz,[]),spawn(foo,baz,[]).
> > [10,5,2,3,4,4,3,1,6,3]
> > [10,5,1,4,2,8,3,9,3,7]
> > <0.74.0>
> >
> > Note the first two numbers generated are always the same in both 
processes, even though they start with different seeds. If you're going to 
start many processes and you want to be sure they have independent random 
numbers then you have to be a bit more careful how you initialise the 
seed--but if there are going to be seconds or more between each process 
start then you don't have to worry.
> >
> > John
> > ??----- Original Message -----
> > ??From: tom kelly
> > ??To: erlang-questions@REDACTED
> > ??Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 8:45 PM
> > ??Subject: [erlang-questions] Random behaviour
> >
> >
> > ??Hello List,
> >
> >
> > ??I just found a bahaviour I didn't expect in OTPs random module, it's 
not necessarily a bug but I thought I'd share it here all the same.
> >
> >
> > ??I wrote a simple random data generator using random:uniform() to 
help me track a bug that was triggered by certain input data that I 
couldn't catch. The minimal example is attached in demo.erl.
> >
> >
> > ??If you run the test function it will probably pass a few times but 
will eventually hit my "bug" and fail. Whenever the bug is triggered the 
test function gets a badmatch and the current process dies. The behaviour 
I wasn't expecting now occurs, everytime I repeat the test function I get 
the exact same sequence of numbers from random:uniform.
> >
> >
> > ??I can call random:uniform from the shell to move it on one step in 
the sequence and probably pass another test, but when it fails again my 
process dies and again I repeatedly get a repeated sequence of numbers. 
The sequence from this second fail is different from the first fail so it 
hasn't just gone back to the start.
> >
> >
> > ??I don't expect to be saved from my own bugs but just thought this 
was a strange behaviour from random. If anyone is using random in their 
application they should be aware of this.
> >
> >
> > ??//Tom.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ??8> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??ok - [15,21,70,16,56,22,46,43,1,57]
> > ??ok
> > ??9> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??ok - [41,31,6,58,99,34,19,21,4,89]
> > ??ok
> > ??10> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??ok - [83,33,26,81,2,3,5,6,99,57]
> > ??ok
> > ??11> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??** exception error: no match of right hand side value 
[1,39,67,88,90,80,59,30,
> > ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 
?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 72,41,80]
> > ?? ?? ?? in function ??demo:test_my_buggy_code/0
> > ?? ?? ?? in call from random:uniform/0
> > ??12> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??** exception error: no match of right hand side value 
[1,39,67,88,90,80,59,30,
> > ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 
?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 72,41,80]
> > ?? ?? ?? in function ??demo:test_my_buggy_code/0
> > ?? ?? ?? in call from random:uniform/0
> > ??13> random:uniform(1).
> > ??1
> > ??14> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??ok - [67,88,90,80,59,30,72,41,80,8]
> > ??ok
> > ??15> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??ok - [60,68,65,8,27,61,1,94,82,65]
> > ??ok
> > ??16> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??ok - [47,2,62,94,25,97,94,87,27,32]
> > ??ok
> > ??17> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??ok - [59,21,10,14,17,24,93,78,34,28]
> > ??ok
> > ??18> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??** exception error: no match of right hand side value 
[1,3,59,96,93,32,99,34,
> > ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 
?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 60,42,2]
> > ?? ?? ?? in function ??demo:test_my_buggy_code/0
> > ?? ?? ?? in call from random:uniform/0
> > ??19> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??** exception error: no match of right hand side value 
[1,3,59,96,93,32,99,34,
> > ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 
?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 60,42,2]
> > ?? ?? ?? in function ??demo:test_my_buggy_code/0
> > ?? ?? ?? in call from random:uniform/0
> > ??20> demo:test_my_buggy_code().
> > ??** exception error: no match of right hand side value 
[1,3,59,96,93,32,99,34,
> > ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 
?? ?? ?? ?? ?? 60,42,2]
> > ?? ?? ?? in function ??demo:test_my_buggy_code/0
> > ?? ?? ?? in call from random:uniform/0
> > ??21>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > ??________________________________________________________________
> > ??erlang-questions (at) erlang.org mailing list.
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