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<p>Spot on, Fred. I concur with every point.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2018-02-12 10:46 AM, Fred Hebert
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAFA3VZL1noCNALYiTf5H5g3HJB+hiM730JwXvFSreb7=JXODYQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <span
dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:zxq9@zxq9.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">zxq9@zxq9.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span
class="m_5104648509440930194gmail-">On 2018年2月12日月曜日
10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:<br>
> Intent does not matter.<br>
<br>
</span>No.<br>
<br>
Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone
several rounds with you on several subjects, each time
having learned something for my own part. On technical
subjects, anyway.<br>
<br>
But... INTENT<br>
<br>
You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not
win against the weight of history.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this
library in my god damn workplace. Because I know and have
worked with people who do find this kind of shit
offensive.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where
everyone is fine with that. This has not been the reality
of the people I have spent time with both professionally
and personally.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not
because you care about that but because of the ambient
temperature. I know SJW flippancy is not your intent, but
that is the only place this winds up going these days.
That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a
systemic one, not just in a concurrent software system of
ephemeral importance, but a concrete socio-economic one of
critical importance that pays for all the other parties we
enjoy.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term
that can very reasonably be construed as racist is <i>SJW
flippancy</i>. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions
on Urban Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal
names or short terms:<br>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li><a
href="https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.urbandictionary.<wbr>com/define.php?term=coon</a>
<br>
<div class="m_5104648509440930194gmail-meaning">Insulting
term for a black person</div>
</li>
<li><a
href="https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.urbandictionary.<wbr>com/define.php?term=doggo</a><br>
An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to
express the meaning of the picture. Usually found in
captions.</li>
<li><a
href="https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.urbandictionary.<wbr>com/define.php?term=Cat</a><br>
The definitive pet. </li>
<li><a
href="https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.urbandictionary.<wbr>com/define.php?term=dog</a><br>
Not a cat<br>
</li>
<li><span class="m_5104648509440930194gmail-"><a
href="https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.urbandictionary.<wbr>com/define.php?term=fox</a><br>
</span><span class="m_5104648509440930194gmail-">A
beautiful and attractive woman</span></li>
<li><span class="m_5104648509440930194gmail-"><a
href="https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.urbandictionary.<wbr>com/define.php?term=whale</a><br>
</span>noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid
special attention by a casino host so the patron will
feel comfortable to gamble more money.<br>
<span class="m_5104648509440930194gmail-"></span></li>
</ul>
</div>
<div> Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for
that one.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>Intent does not matter</i> is not me saying that the
author of the lib is racist or ill-intended. It's me
saying that no matter the original intent, the
consequences will be the result of the reader's
interpretation. Look this is even a principle in literary
review called <i>The death of the author</i> (<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/<wbr>wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author</a>):</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of
reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the
author's identity—their political views, historical
context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other
biographical or personal attributes—to distill meaning
from the author's work. In this type of criticism, the
experiences and biases of the author serve as a
definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this
method of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient
but is actually sloppy and flawed: "To give a text an
author" and assign a single, corresponding
interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that
text".<br>
<br>
[...]<br>
<br>
In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy
between text and textiles, declaring that a "text is a
tissue [or fabric] of quotations", drawn from
"innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one,
individual experience. The essential meaning of a work
depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than
the "passions" or "tastes" of the writer; "a text's
unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in
its destination", or its audience.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect
the author to be around to give meaning and maintain these
things. What the author intends is not relevant in the
long run because the interpretation can get away from it.
It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be
visible and enough in your face that it won't be construed
as supporting the system you are attempting to criticize.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Intent does not matter.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Riddle me this:<br>
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems
that WE WRITE OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash"
mentality, how is it that we somehow understand to a
manifest degree the economic and social value systems
(which are profoundly more complex than our petty software
systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what
restart mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble
default"?<br>
<br>
I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have
a profound respect for your intellect but cannot imagine
that you have properly considered the alternatives or
where this path of discourse winds up eventualy going.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>I very much stand by <i>intent does not matter</i>.
It matters to me in this context and I do not yet judge
Valery negatively, I trust that <i>raccoon</i> was
indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that
other people will do the same. Expecting other people to
do the same is downright absurd and foolish. If your
entire position relies on explaining every single person
the origin of the name for things to go well, you have
taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is
the hill you die on. What I'm doing here is giving a
really fucking serious warning of how much windmill
tilting you'll get into.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you want me to go by the <i>Let it Crash</i> maxim,
the idea of <i>let it crash</i> is to not try to handle
all the errors and letting them fail early and often.
Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct
corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash
this stupid ass project name as early as possible so the
author doesn't get stuck trying to handle every error
coming their way in the near future. Look at it this way.
You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single
thread: <i>SJW Flippancy.</i> Loic brought up <i>identity
politics</i>. Roman is trying make a tally of who is it
who's offended in the first place as if that made any
difference the moment this gets out of here.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you can't see that as a warning sign when this
discussion is taking place within mailing list regulars,
what will be a reasonable waning sign to you?<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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