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There’s something that hasn’t been discussed much in this thread.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I was part of the small group responsible for bringing Erlang into one of the largest companies in the world; AT&T (not counting the hardware that probably runs Erlang). As such, I am partially responsible for the vetting of the ecosystem as well
as popular libraries that developers would use. Would I *ever* put a codebase into my company using this package? No. Would I *ever* use this in a codebase that a single other developer could see? No. Would I add this to the Erlang ecosystem inside AT&T?
No. I don’t wish for a date with corporate lawyers. </div>
<div class="">If it had a better name, and was a good software project, would I? Absolutely.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You are asking for lawsuits if you use this kind of horrible language in the workplace. It doesn’t matter what the intent is. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If your goal is adoption, pick a name that people can use in all situations ranging from personal projects to large company projects. </div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Charles Hixson <<a href="mailto:charleshixsn@earthlink.net" class="">charleshixsn@earthlink.net</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 1:26:02 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
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<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">I'm sorry, but "coon" was definitely a pejorative term during *my* childhood. I'm not a part of the affected group, but it is certainly one of the strongly associated meanings that attach to it in my mind. Use a word meaning the same animal from
a different language. Or spell out the name in full. Or name it after someone's pet raccoon. Or just change it. There's no downside to changing it, and there is a downside to keeping it. I don't know how strong a downside, but it's better to avoid any.<br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/12/2018 07:11 AM, Chris Waymire wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAPaRk7gWiod-KXeaQxgCPXF_5bi17rX51hoKLGhSn7vzcV5+Sw@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">The idea that a software library that happens to share name with a racial slur that is over 180 years old and has not been part of common social use for several decades would make people angry is ridiculous. Especially when the word
as meanings that pre-date the slur. If that upsets you to the point where you are unable to get past it then it is time to unplug your tv, your radio and your internet and live a life of peaceful solitude.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Loïc Hoguin <span dir="ltr" class="">
<<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">essen@ninenines.eu</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
This idea that white supremacists need a reason to call others using racial slurs is ridiculous at best. At this rate you will call me a Nazi by the next reply. Fingers crossed.<br class="">
<br class="">
Again Valery does not apply this term to black people or make any reference about them or the US History, so there's no intent here. He's using the other meaning.<br class="">
<br class="">
Soon you will argue that hunters are racists because they call racoons "coons".
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br class="">
<br class="">
On 02/12/2018 03:53 PM, Josh Barney wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Intent IS important and the intent of the people who applied this term to black people was a very bad intent.<br class="">
<br class="">
?People are getting offended much too easily these days? ? this argument has been plastered all over American news for years, always coming from a privileged group claiming hurt. This is the white supremesist position.<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Lo?c Hoguin <<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">essen@ninenines.eu</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
This reminds me of people who were calling some coffee brand racist not<br class="">
realizing that the Spanish or Portuguese translation for "black"<br class="">
looks a<br class="">
lot like a racist slur.<br class="">
<br class="">
People are getting offended much too easily these days. Intent is<br class="">
important and there's no intent to slur here.<br class="">
<br class="">
On 02/12/2018 03:15 PM, Josh Barney wrote:<br class="">
> One would presume that all the black persons who have been called<br class="">
in an<br class="">
> effort to reduce them to rabid animals hunted for sport by white men<br class="">
> with dogs would be aware. That?s the import thing about racial<br class="">
slurs,<br class="">
> not that you are unhurt, but that someone else is hurt.<br class="">
><br class="">
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:04 AM Lo?c Hoguin <<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">essen@ninenines.eu</a>><br class="">
wrote:<br class="">
><br class="">
> More importantly, who is aware of them? I doubt too many people<br class="">
outside<br class="">
> of North America know about it.<br class="">
><br class="">
> And secondly, should you censor a word that's otherwise perfectly<br class="">
fine<br class="">
> because of its use in slang? It'll get some radical activists<br class="">
angry for<br class="">
> sure so it depends on whether you see this as a good or a bad thing.<br class="">
> Nowadays that tends to be a good thing.<br class="">
><br class="">
> Most people will not think twice about it.<br class="">
><br class="">
> On 02/12/2018 02:17 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:<br class="">
> > Are you aware of the connotations coming with that name?<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Valery Tikhonov<br class="">
> > <<a href="mailto:valerii.tikhonov@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">valerii.tikhonov@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:valerii.tikhonov@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">valerii.tikhonov@gmail<wbr class="">.com</a>>><br class="">
> wrote:<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Hi,<br class="">
> > I would like to introduce ?oon<br class="">
<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_comtihon_coon&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=RxbdZ8BIm4RfMnpp5ROzi8LGEmBWeF9kFzh4wajiBsI&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://github.com/comtihon/c<wbr class="">oon</a>>
-<br class="">
> > build and dependency management system and tool for easy<br class="">
deployment<br class="">
> > Erlang packages.<br class="">
> > In short:<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > * coon uses prebuilt packages from CoonHub<br class="">
> > <<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__coon.justtech.blog&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=2cbuE9ZV_Td4xeDqtSlcWqLgFFRIi6w6FsFPPJbRks4&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://coon.justtech.blog</a>>,
what reduces build time<br class="">
> > * thanks to github integration it allows to trigger new builds for<br class="">
> > Erlang packages when commiting new tag in repo<br class="">
> > * you can set installation steps to deploy and run Erlang service<br class="">
> > from prebuilt package on system without otp/Erlang installed<br class="">
> > with `coon install namespace/name`<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Documentation, articles and links:<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > coon (client) - <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_comtihon_coon&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=RxbdZ8BIm4RfMnpp5ROzi8LGEmBWeF9kFzh4wajiBsI&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
https://github.com/comtihon/co<wbr class="">on</a><br class="">
> > <<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_comtihon_coon&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=RxbdZ8BIm4RfMnpp5ROzi8LGEmBWeF9kFzh4wajiBsI&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://github.com/comtihon/c<wbr class="">oon</a>>
see Readme.md and doc folder<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > coon_auto_builder (server) -<br class="">
> > <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_comtihon_coon-5Fauto-5Fbuilder&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=uUm-PZcdImDZdq5fwi_LvxLHZvSVjVb07rduHUEplxI&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
https://github.com/comtihon/co<wbr class="">on_auto_builder</a><br class="">
> > <<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_comtihon_coon-5Fauto-5Fbuilder&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=uUm-PZcdImDZdq5fwi_LvxLHZvSVjVb07rduHUEplxI&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://github.com/comtihon/c<wbr class="">oon_auto_builder</a>><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > how to create and build Erlang service from scratch<br class="">
> > <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__justtech.blog_2018_01_07_create-2Derlang-2Dservice-2Dwith-2Dcoon_&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=CAjvNIo8MAXnubPlom1hCEkH_5ltBcs1VbsLc3nigSc&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
https://justtech.blog/2018/01/<wbr class="">07/create-erlang-service-with-<wbr class="">coon/</a><br class="">
> ><br class="">
<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__justtech.blog_2018_01_07_create-2Derlang-2Dservice-2Dwith-2Dcoon_&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=CAjvNIo8MAXnubPlom1hCEkH_5ltBcs1VbsLc3nigSc&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://justtech.blog/2018/01<wbr class="">/07/create-erlang-service-with<wbr class="">-coon/</a>><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > how to prepare Erlang service for deploy<br class="">
> ><br class="">
><br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__justtech.blog_2018_02_11_erlang-2Dservice-2Deasy-2Ddeploy-2Dwith-2Dcoon_&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=oVMRzLO5oTRQA2iKUkDBWbfYB9alJeOV1dAcKlaGOUg&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
https://justtech.blog/2018/02/<wbr class="">11/erlang-service-easy-deploy-<wbr class="">with-coon/</a><br class="">
> ><br class="">
><br class="">
<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__justtech.blog_2018_02_11_erlang-2Dservice-2Deasy-2Ddeploy-2Dwith-2Dcoon_&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=oVMRzLO5oTRQA2iKUkDBWbfYB9alJeOV1dAcKlaGOUg&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://justtech.blog/2018/02<wbr class="">/11/erlang-service-easy-deploy<wbr class="">-with-coon/</a>><br class="">
<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > example service which uses coon<br class="">
> > <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_comtihon_example-5Fservice&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=4rzVKkix-hQtaB2iHGsZAMBSioYpcAMhyGMcuCoYLbc&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
https://github.com/comtihon/ex<wbr class="">ample_service</a><br class="">
> > <<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_comtihon_example-5Fservice&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=4rzVKkix-hQtaB2iHGsZAMBSioYpcAMhyGMcuCoYLbc&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://github.com/comtihon/e<wbr class="">xample_service</a>><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > example library which uses coon<br class="">
> > <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_comtihon_mongodb-2Derlang&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=QsUgoig-fquuVxrwjubXyyWKXT5pVpRNE6fElds-YNk&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
https://github.com/comtihon/mo<wbr class="">ngodb-erlang</a><br class="">
> > <<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_comtihon_mongodb-2Derlang&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=QsUgoig-fquuVxrwjubXyyWKXT5pVpRNE6fElds-YNk&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://github.com/comtihon/m<wbr class="">ongodb-erlang</a>><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Hope you find this tool useful :)<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > ______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
> > erlang-questions mailing list<br class="">
> > <a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
erlang-questions@erlang.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">erlang-questions@erlan<wbr class="">g.org</a>><br class="">
> > <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__erlang.org_mailman_listinfo_erlang-2Dquestions&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=7oaWy2AsAVOx8WNsPTD8zgrr2PWEv1AfMDVagFbPKMU&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
http://erlang.org/mailman/list<wbr class="">info/erlang-questions</a><br class="">
> > <<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__erlang.org_mailman_listinfo_erlang-2Dquestions&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=7oaWy2AsAVOx8WNsPTD8zgrr2PWEv1AfMDVagFbPKMU&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">http://erlang.org/mailman/lis<wbr class="">tinfo/erlang-questions</a>><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > ______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
> > erlang-questions mailing list<br class="">
> > <a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
erlang-questions@erlang.org</a><br class="">
> > <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__erlang.org_mailman_listinfo_erlang-2Dquestions&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=7oaWy2AsAVOx8WNsPTD8zgrr2PWEv1AfMDVagFbPKMU&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
http://erlang.org/mailman/list<wbr class="">info/erlang-questions</a><br class="">
> ><br class="">
><br class="">
> --<br class="">
> Lo?c Hoguin<br class="">
> <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ninenines.eu&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=J03QS8mi2WFKwEnw6RBjqweAAWy4ynOHjx4BZO00wEw&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
https://ninenines.eu</a><br class="">
> ______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
> erlang-questions mailing list<br class="">
> <a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
erlang-questions@erlang.org</a><br class="">
> <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__erlang.org_mailman_listinfo_erlang-2Dquestions&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=7oaWy2AsAVOx8WNsPTD8zgrr2PWEv1AfMDVagFbPKMU&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
http://erlang.org/mailman/list<wbr class="">info/erlang-questions</a><br class="">
><br class="">
<br class="">
-- Lo?c Hoguin<br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ninenines.eu&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=J03QS8mi2WFKwEnw6RBjqweAAWy4ynOHjx4BZO00wEw&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">
https://ninenines.eu</a><br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class="">-- <br class="">
Loïc Hoguin</font></span>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ninenines.eu&d=DwMDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=J03QS8mi2WFKwEnw6RBjqweAAWy4ynOHjx4BZO00wEw&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://ninenines.eu</a><br class="">
______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
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<br class="">
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Charles Hixson <<a href="mailto:charleshixsn@earthlink.net" class="">charleshixsn@earthlink.net</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 1:38:04 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name. I never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has retarded the success of the project
significantly, and kept it out of at least two businesses that I know of. Recently they've started altering the display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image Manipulation Program" on the startup screen. That's what "The Gimp" always
stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less blatant...because some people
<b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>were<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> offended, and because businesses didn't want to risk offending customers.
<br class="">
<br class="">
I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well avoid mentioning it to others.
<br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:A76EF4D2-CE24-49ED-A278-EF1BB3F31E31@wombat.me" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can’t believe there’s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I’d apologises and change it. Maybe that’s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no.
If there’s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon.
I need to use erlang for my work, please don’t stick with this name. I don’t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also?
On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:t@crashfast.com"><t@crashfast.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away.
For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American.
--
Tristan Sloughter
"I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:t@crashfast.com">t@crashfast.com</a>
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:zxq9@zxq9.com">zxq9@zxq9.com</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">Intent does not matter.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="" class="">No.
Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with
you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own
part. On technical subjects, anyway.
But... INTENT
You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against
the weight of history.
This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care
about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy
is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these
days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one,
not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a
concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the
other parties we enjoy.
Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE
OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we
somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value
systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software
systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart
mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?
I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound
respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly
considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up
eventualy going.
-Craig
_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Antonio SJ Musumeci <<a href="mailto:trapexit@spawn.link" class="">trapexit@spawn.link</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 1:54:53 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Charles Hixson <<a href="mailto:charleshixsn@earthlink.net" class="">charleshixsn@earthlink.net</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Cc:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Erlang-Questions Questions <<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">"retarded"<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
Poor word choice given the thread topic.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Charles Hixson <span dir="ltr" class="">
<<a href="mailto:charleshixsn@earthlink.net" target="_blank" class="">charleshixsn@earthlink.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">Well, it really depends on how long the library has had that name. I never expected the gimp people to change the name of their program when it was pointed out that some might find the name offensive...but it has retarded the success of the project
significantly, and kept it out of at least two businesses that I know of. Recently they've started altering the display so that is doesn't say "The Gimp" but now says "The GNU Image Manipulation Program" on the startup screen. That's what "The Gimp" always
stood for, but now they've altered the startup screen to make the name less blatant...because some people
<b class="m_3567468713924066679moz-txt-star"><span class="m_3567468713924066679moz-txt-tag">*</span>were<span class="m_3567468713924066679moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> offended, and because businesses didn't want to risk offending customers.
<br class="">
<br class="">
I wouldn't avoid using the library because of the name, but I might well avoid mentioning it to others.
<br class="">
</p>
<div class="">
<div class="h5"><br class="">
<div class="m_3567468713924066679moz-cite-prefix">On 02/12/2018 08:58 AM, Russell Brown wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">Tristan is right. This really is awful. I can’t believe there’s even an argument. If someone emailed me to tell me that my library's name was offensive, I’d apologises and change it. Maybe that’s just me. I think this case is indefensible. And those who ask that we _not talk about it_ but instead talk about the technical merits, no.
If there’s a commercial entity associated with this I hope they act soon.
I need to use erlang for my work, please don’t stick with this name. I don’t want to be in anyway even tangentially associated with it. Does github not have some policy about this repo name, also?
On 12 Feb 2018, at 17:16, Tristan Sloughter <a class="m_3567468713924066679moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:t@crashfast.com" target="_blank"><t@crashfast.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">This is awful. But sadly not surprising. Intent only matters in the sense the author is not at fault. Intent does not matter when it comes to whether or not you want to not push people away.
For those who don't care what I or Fred say since we are white, it is easy enough to go ask Black developers in North American.
--
Tristan Sloughter
"I am not a crackpot" - Abe Simpson
<a class="m_3567468713924066679moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:t@crashfast.com" target="_blank">t@crashfast.com</a>
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018, at 7:29 AM, <a class="m_3567468713924066679moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:zxq9@zxq9.com" target="_blank">zxq9@zxq9.com</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">Intent does not matter.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="">No.
Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds with
you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own
part. On technical subjects, anyway.
But... INTENT
You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against
the weight of history.
This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care
about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy
is not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these
days. That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one,
not just in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a
concrete socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the
other parties we enjoy.
Riddle me this:
If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE
OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we
somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value
systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software
systems) that we can dictate value within them? By what restart
mechanism is this all brought back to a "reasonble default"?
I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound
respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly
considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up
eventualy going.
-Craig
______________________________<wbr class="">_________________
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<br class="">
<br class="">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Charles Hixson <<a href="mailto:charleshixsn@earthlink.net" class="">charleshixsn@earthlink.net</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 1:59:28 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">"Coon" is often used as a shortened name for the animal. If you can definitely tell from context that that is what is meant, it isn't (usually) seen as a racial slur. But you do need to know your audience. If you don't, it's almost certain that
a major fraction of them will consider the slur as a plausible meaning. And that's when the context implies that you mean "raccoon".<br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/12/2018 08:52 AM, Chris Duesing wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAMbPveP1odd_6hi0QXDwGFhh8t=DGzwr80h5H7LSC8PcwR0Nzg@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">I can't believe this "discussion" is happening. Coon is a racial slur, there is no other use of the word. The fact that a bunch of white Europeans are pointing out that the dozen people involved in this thread aren't offended simply
shows the lack of diversity in the mailing list. The "oh I'm butthurt because other people get offended by things" is fucking ridiculous. It is a racial slur, period. If this isn't a library only intended to be used by racist fucks then rename it.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:28 AM, nx <span dir="ltr" class="">
<<a href="mailto:nx@nu-ex.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">nx@nu-ex.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class="">For what it's worth, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of this thread was "that is a racist slur". I've also never heard anyone call a raccoon a coon.<br class="">
<br class="">
The news that cowboy was named for "cowboys kill apaches" is disappointing.</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="">
<div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM Fred Hebert <<a href="mailto:mononcqc@ferd.ca" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">mononcqc@ferd.ca</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">
<div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">What I'm saying is that it does not matter how I interpret things. I asked and the author said publicly it was a raccoon. I'm okay with that explanation and I'm ready to believe it.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My point is that other people won't ask the author, won't know who he is, and will pick an interpretation and stick with it. They won't need the context, they won't need anything. They'll just do it. The name can be interpreted in a racist way,
and so it's pretty much guaranteed that it will be eventually interpreted that way. The author is free to go ahead and keep the name, and the users and onlookers will be free to read whatever they want in that name.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">That is 100% my point.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Krzysztof Jurewicz <span dir="ltr" class="">
<<a href="mailto:krzysztof.jurewicz@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">krzysztof.jurewicz@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class="">Fred Hebert writes:<br class="">
<br class="">
> Anyone is of course free to name their software whatever they want. Picking<br class="">
> a racist name is however never going to be consequences-free as this e-mail<br class="">
> thread first shows on the first day of release, and adoption figures may<br class="">
> also reflect it.<br class="">
<br class="">
</span>Merriam-Webster online dictionary (naming itself as “America’s most-trusted online dictionary”) says that there two meanings of “coon”:<br class="">
<br class="">
⒈ raccoon;<br class="">
⒉ offensive — used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person.<br class="">
<br class="">
I presume that context matters. What makes you think that in this context this word means ⒉? Wikipedia in the article about raccoon says that is also known coloquially as “coon”, so I guess this is not a very uncommon usage.<br class="">
<br class="">
Or are you saying that non-racist usages of words that have also racist meanings should be eventually abandoned?<br class="">
<br class="">
(I’m not a native speaker, so bear with my eventual ignorance).<br class="">
</blockquote>
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<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Charles Hixson <<a href="mailto:charleshixsn@earthlink.net" class="">charleshixsn@earthlink.net</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 2:11:30 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
Did you ever read how much Exxon paid to find a name that wasn't taken and wasn't objectionable? Whee! I was shocked. (I couldn't find a link for it in a short Google search, and I don't remember the exact figure, but it was more than the cost of the most
recently built college dorm.)<br class="">
<br class="">
But it's also true that it's important that a name be easily memorable, which lets out the SHA-1 choice...though that makes a good unique identifier.<br class="">
<br class="">
Picking a good name is hard. But to me this doesn't seem a wise choice.<br class="">
<br class="">
On 02/12/2018 09:58 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Goodness - what a lot of mails.<br class="">
<br class="">
When choosing a name the following algorithm is used by many<br class="">
organisations and people<br class="">
<br class="">
1) Choose a name<br class="">
2) Check in all known languages if this might offend someone<br class="">
if it does goto 1)<br class="">
<br class="">
(There are even companies you can hire that do this, if it's a big product)<br class="">
<br class="">
If I wrote some software I would like it to be discussed for the right<br class="">
reasons, which are<br class="">
<br class="">
- it is useful<br class="">
- it is beautiful<br class="">
- it solves some interesting problem<br class="">
- it raises and solves some interesting problem<br class="">
<br class="">
I would not like it to be discussed for my skills in naming the damn code.<br class="">
<br class="">
I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of<br class="">
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart<br class="">
from those who<br class="">
thought the name could be a tad simpler.<br class="">
<br class="">
If you choose the wrong name you can accidentally offend people, even if this<br class="">
is not your intention - offending people has consequences.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers<br class="">
<br class="">
/Joe<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:28 PM, <<a href="mailto:zxq9@zxq9.com" class="">zxq9@zxq9.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On 2018年2月12日月曜日 12時10分20秒 JST Tom Santero wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Putting the project's name aside for a moment, there are two things I'd<br class="">
like to point about:<br class="">
</blockquote>
THANK YOU<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">1. i would never pull a pre-built binary from a 3rd party into one of my<br class="">
projects. lol security?<br class="">
</blockquote>
I disagree, in that we are right back in "trusting trust" territory. I prefer building from source (for a number of reasons) but source or not, for nearly everyone (perhaps actually everyone) who builds a project that involves external dependencies, the security
is only as strong as the signature on the code received (and implicitly, the trust of the signature scheme employed) and the trust of the review process which granted the signature.<br class="">
<br class="">
Both are greviously lacking in using direct-from-github packages (whether source or pre-built) as repository inputs.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">2. that this project doesn't address rebar3/relx/hex at all means it is at<br class="">
odds with the direction the community has been pushing toward for several<br class="">
years now, and makes it relatively useless<br class="">
</blockquote>
I disagree again. In this era we have full-blown systems to drive; the common case today is NOT to deploy to a resource-strapped or custom-built piece of hardware that can never be accessed by system administrators. The common environment today is more like
a (to use an awful term) "devops" environment where people want things to rebuild in the lightest possible way and "just go". Which is to say, people desperately wish that Erlang (not to mention Elixir) code could be more commonly built and run the way Python
projects that use virtualenv can be.<br class="">
<br class="">
I think the to-date direction of the Erlang community de facto practices is a bit dated, being built around the ancient and original assumption "everything has to be an Erlang distribution".<br class="">
<br class="">
-Craig<br class="">
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<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Loïc Hoguin <<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" class="">essen@ninenines.eu</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 2:13:59 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Tom Santero <<a href="mailto:tsantero@gmail.com" class="">tsantero@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Cc:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Erlang <<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Loïc Hoguin <<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" class="">essen@ninenines.eu</a> <<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" class="">mailto:essen@ninenines.eu</a>>> wrote:<br class="">
On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if<br class="">
he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its<br class="">
initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old<br class="">
conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far<br class="">
Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make<br class="">
any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He<br class="">
made the call and ran with it.<br class="">
Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my<br class="">
knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest<br class="">
movies, so the inspiration is fictional.<br class="">
Nobody has had any problem with it.<br class="">
Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic. Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted under the radar for so long without having been
called out; in context, it is disappointing.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products. Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too.<br class="">
<br class="">
I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today (Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially telling that it hadn't been translated to English for
so long despite being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be.<br class="">
<br class="">
Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages. Culture changes fast enough that you might see
otherwise normal words become slur within your lifetime.<br class="">
<br class="">
According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it, otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands.
Still I don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories does not make me side with anyone in historical events.<br class="">
<br class="">
Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process for coming up with the name is irrelevant,
just as the history behind a practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme.<br class="">
<br class="">
And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the
others, I decided against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a native American tribe. Maybe later.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
Loïc Hoguin<br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ninenines.eu&d=DwIDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=J03QS8mi2WFKwEnw6RBjqweAAWy4ynOHjx4BZO00wEw&e=" class="">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ninenines.eu&d=DwIDaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=J03QS8mi2WFKwEnw6RBjqweAAWy4ynOHjx4BZO00wEw&e=</a>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Stefan Strigler <<a href="mailto:stefan.strigler@gmail.com" class="">stefan.strigler@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 3:05:33 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Loïc Hoguin <<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" class="">essen@ninenines.eu</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Cc:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Erlang <<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">There's a difference between making a mistake and refusing to learn from them once pointed out.</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:14 PM Loïc Hoguin <<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" class="">essen@ninenines.eu</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On 02/12/2018 07:10 PM, Tom Santero wrote:<br class="">
><br class="">
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Loïc Hoguin <<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" target="_blank" class="">essen@ninenines.eu</a><br class="">
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:essen@ninenines.eu" target="_blank" class="">essen@ninenines.eu</a>>> wrote:<br class="">
><br class="">
> On 02/12/2018 05:13 PM, Fred Hebert wrote:> Loic can correct me if<br class="">
> he's wrong, but his /Cowboy/ web server took its<br class="">
><br class="">
> initial name because /cowboys kill apaches/ if I recall old<br class="">
> conference conversations. I think it's of poor taste, but so far<br class="">
> Loic has not had any fall out or enough offended people to make<br class="">
> any change, and he did build a successful business out of it. He<br class="">
> made the call and ran with it.<br class="">
><br class="">
><br class="">
> Oversimplified of course but true. Context is important though, my<br class="">
> knowledge of cowboys mostly comes from Lucky Luke and a few farwest<br class="">
> movies, so the inspiration is fictional.<br class="">
><br class="">
> Nobody has had any problem with it.<br class="">
><br class="">
><br class="">
> Actually, plenty of us have had a problem with it for a long time Loic.<br class="">
> Those of us who knew the origin. The term cowboy absent your naming<br class="">
> context is of course innocuous, which might explain why it's coasted<br class="">
> under the radar for so long without having been called out; in context,<br class="">
> it is disappointing.<br class="">
<br class="">
If ignorance is disappointing then so be it. But in that case you must<br class="">
be horrified at a lot of western related entertainment products.<br class="">
Watching kids play "cowboys and indians" must be truly heartbreaking too.<br class="">
<br class="">
I grew up with Lucky Luke, Tintin, Asterix and other fictions. Cowboy<br class="">
comes from there. Sure some of the stories raise some eyebrows today<br class="">
(Tintin in the Congo is particularly infamous, and it's especially<br class="">
telling that it hadn't been translated to English for so long despite<br class="">
being translated everywhere else), but that doesn't make the people who<br class="">
enjoy them whatever *ist some want them to be.<br class="">
<br class="">
Ignorance of US history is to be expected of non-US people. The same<br class="">
applies everywhere. You can't really expect a single developer to know<br class="">
all the intricacies of all existing *and future* cultures and languages.<br class="">
Culture changes fast enough that you might see otherwise normal words<br class="">
become slur within your lifetime.<br class="">
<br class="">
According to some people, and I'm no expert, Thanksgiving originates<br class="">
with the genocide of native Americans. Should Thanksgiving be dropped<br class="">
because of its origins? Clearly some people are offended by it,<br class="">
otherwise I wouldn't have heard of this from faraway lands. Still I<br class="">
don't think the people celebrating Thanksgiving today are celebrating<br class="">
genocide. In the same vein, me naming a project after fictional stories<br class="">
does not make me side with anyone in historical events.<br class="">
<br class="">
Finally, the origin of a name is one thing, its use another. Sure that's<br class="">
how the idea came to me, remembering fictional stories and naming the<br class="">
project after them. But that's not how it's been used since. The process<br class="">
for coming up with the name is irrelevant, just as the history behind a<br class="">
practice is irrelevant to how it's practiced today. What matters is how<br class="">
things are today, and today the western theme is just that, a theme.<br class="">
<br class="">
And just to complete the story behind the Cowboy name: I initially<br class="">
thought of using the name of a tribe but because there was already a<br class="">
number of them in use in software projects, including the Apache and<br class="">
Cherokee HTTP servers, and I was not familiar with the others, I decided<br class="">
against it. So we came real close of having the name being the same as a<br class="">
native American tribe. Maybe later.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
<br class="">
--<br class="">
Loïc Hoguin<br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ninenines.eu&d=DwMFaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=J03QS8mi2WFKwEnw6RBjqweAAWy4ynOHjx4BZO00wEw&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://ninenines.eu</a><br class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
erlang-questions mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" target="_blank" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a><br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__erlang.org_mailman_listinfo_erlang-2Dquestions&d=DwMFaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=7oaWy2AsAVOx8WNsPTD8zgrr2PWEv1AfMDVagFbPKMU&e=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions</a><br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Jesper Louis Andersen <<a href="mailto:jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com" class="">jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 3:06:35 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Joe Armstrong <<a href="mailto:erlang@gmail.com" class="">erlang@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Cc:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Erlang <<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <<a href="mailto:erlang@gmail.com" class="">erlang@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br class="">
I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of<br class="">
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart<br class="">
from those who<br class="">
thought the name could be a tad simpler.<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I might have said this before, but here goes:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Vlad Dumitrescu <<a href="mailto:vladdu55@gmail.com" class="">vladdu55@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 4:06:28 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Jesper Louis Andersen <<a href="mailto:jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com" class="">jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Cc:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Erlang <<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <span dir="ltr" class="">
<<a href="mailto:jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.<wbr class="">com</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <<a href="mailto:erlang@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">erlang@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br class="">
I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of<br class="">
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart<br class="">
from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler.<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</span>
<div class="">I might have said this before, but here goes:</div>
<div class="">Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a package as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list of other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names anyway, not
checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package is renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a reference points. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Anyway, <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__hex.pm&d=DwMFaQ&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=SzPZyK7sS4bZdLIkMcdKpW4KvY21Qu_WkFPys6hw8iM&m=lAOHkDrV58PRZsCMJ6QEtwDTiqdoZGjds-UZQ6Ums44&s=LGqUiohIU_hrXPzcGoM7B2kEZ5Hy0o67mImKIfNGGuA&e=" class="">
hex.pm</a> has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is useful except for tools. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">best regards,</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Vlad</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">"Lloyd R. Prentice" <<a href="mailto:lloyd@writersglen.com" class="">lloyd@writersglen.com</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services</b><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">February 12, 2018 at 4:35:26 PM EST<br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Jesper Louis Andersen <<a href="mailto:jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com" class="">jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Cc:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Erlang <<a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org" class="">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a>><br class="">
</span></div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div dir="auto" class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">Hello,</span>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Jesper and Joe do make good sense to me. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And, more, I would like to see much more informed debate on the technical merits of this new tool.<br class="">
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">As aside, however, I haven’t seen so much activity on this list since I first subscribed some four years ago. </span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">Note that we haven’t heard from any North American black Erlang programmers on this list. Why would that be?</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">I’m a privileged, white (so far as I know from my spotty genealogy, although the recent work on the Chadwick man casts some doubt), provincial North American male. </span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">Some in my genetic/gender/national cohort feel that our group is being grievously discriminated against. I don’t happen to feel so for plenty of socio-economic reasons.</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">Nevertheless, the name of this new tool did seem unfortunate in the extreme to me. Were my skin black, from everything I know, I would definitely feel a twinge of pain and resentment
every time one of the many words used historically to define me as less than a respected human being was tossed around in casual conversation.</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">But some on this list are correct. One can be overly sensitive and some groups do exploit these sensitivities for politely advantage. </span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that naming of software packages in these times has many cross-cultural implications.</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class="">For us, that is the Erlang community, the big question is how can we learn and grow together regardless of our respective cultural heritages? How can we minimize the contentious bickering and trolling that has infected so much discourse across
the web?</div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">Tribalism is a reality in our world. Every tribe has its own taboos, sensitivities, and moral blind spots.</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">But our world is ever more interconnected and interdependent. Empathy and respect for the feelings of others can go a long way toward reducing the friction of cross-cultural exchange.
As can respectful discussion of differences.</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">For me, this thread reinforces my belief in this principle.</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">All the best,</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">LRP</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">Sent from my iPad</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <<a href="mailto:jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com" class="">jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</span></font></div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <<a href="mailto:erlang@gmail.com" class="">erlang@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</span></font></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of<br class="">
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart<br class="">
from those who<br class="">
thought the name could be a tad simpler.<br class="">
<br class="">
</span></font></blockquote>
<div class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">I might have said this before, but here goes:</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people
remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade
before we remove the old checksummed packages".</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.</span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><font class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
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<br class="">
<div class="">Sent from my iPad</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <<a href="mailto:jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com" class="">jesper.louis.andersen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <<a href="mailto:erlang@gmail.com" class="">erlang@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br class="">
I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1 checksum of<br class="">
the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart<br class="">
from those who<br class="">
thought the name could be a tad simpler.<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I might have said this before, but here goes:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name to the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6 months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a content-addressable-store for your packages.</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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