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No, no no Thomas... You can not move away from OTP. It even has its
official music video:<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VjYUnvnTog">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VjYUnvnTog</a><br>
<br>
On a serious note, I flagged the issues about the T in Telecom when
speaking at the Erlang User Conference in 2001. A company in France,
working on a Jabber proxy, did not use OTP behaviors or even look at
the documentation because they were not developing Telecom products.
In the book I'm co-authoring on OTP, the word Telecom will get one
mention. In the introduction, alongside a rant over why it is called
that way. In the rest of the chapters, it will be an acronym. (BTW,
dealing with management and those sitting on the budget on a daily
basis, I agree in full with Robert. A marketing hat would at times
help).<br>
<br>
Francesco<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13/02/2014 18:54, Thomas Lindgren
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1392317696.43751.YahooMailNeo@web140106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div><span>OK, if the acronym drives your managers nuts, fork
it, rename it (how about "Blue Gorilla", "Customer Yacht" or
"Uhuru Scalable Mountain") and write in the docs that it's
based on OTP </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">(tip:
below the fold)</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">. I'm
sure Erlang Solutions can sell your company Blue Gorilla
training and contractors if you ask them. </span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"><span>Best,</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family:
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; background-color: transparent;
font-style: normal;"><span>Thomas</span></div>
<div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <br>
<br>
<div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size:
10pt;">
<div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size:
12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> On Thursday,
February 13, 2014 7:16 PM, kraythe .
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kraythe@gmail.com"><kraythe@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
</font> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16,
255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left:
5px;">
<div class="y_msg_container">
<div id="yiv8942092287">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">I have read portions of your book
and appreciate your insight. However, I think
you underestimate the task here. Convincing
developers may be difficult, but if they are
good devs they might come around. Convincing
management with control over budget and staffing
when the naming is wrong? Nearly impossible.
Thats why massive advertising companies have
made billions off of just naming things
correctly. All of the other concerns you posted
are very legit and I have had and still do have
many of them myself. But those concerns are at
the tech level and only of minor interest to the
manager wondering why would he staff for erlang
and not scala or ruby? </div>
<div class="yiv8942092287gmail_extra"><br
clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-size:
small;"><b>Robert Simmons Jr. MSc. - Lead
Java Architect @ EA</b></div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-size:
small;"><i>Author of: Hardcore Java (2003)
and Maintainable Java (2012)</i></div>
<div><i style="font-family: arial;
font-size: small;">LinkedIn: </i><font
face="arial"><i><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
target="_blank"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39">http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-simmons/40/852/a39</a></i></font></div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287yqt6092334291"
id="yiv8942092287yqtfd50324">
<div class="yiv8942092287gmail_quote">On Thu,
Feb 13, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Fred Hebert <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:mononcqc@ferd.ca"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:mononcqc@ferd.ca">mononcqc@ferd.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="yiv8942092287gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Answers inline.<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
On 02/13, kraythe . wrote:<br
clear="none">
> I Guess my answers would be:<br
clear="none">
> 0) If there is a business case, you
can convince them. Low adoption hurts<br
clear="none">
> their maintainability and staffing
much more than it does for the startup<br
clear="none">
> or small company. They are a
business, not a bunch of unreasonable
oafs.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
That may be doable. I'm not saying the
opposite.<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
> 1) Why rewrite the libs if you use
the same initials. I wouldn't worry<br
clear="none">
> about that. The programming world
is replete with examples of such things.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
If we can use the same initials, then
that's gained and removes a bunch<br
clear="none">
of issues.<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
> 2) and updating the docs will take
... 10 man hours? Do we not have search<br
clear="none">
> and replace capable tools?<br
clear="none">
> 3) Same answer as 2.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
Yes, but we do not have administration
rights to mirrors, say<br clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
shape="rect" target="_blank"
href="http://erldocs.com/">http://erldocs.com/</a>
and translations that can be hosted by the<br
clear="none">
community.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The work done with the OTP documentation
goes further than the OTP team<br
clear="none">
itself.<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
> 4) Dont need to "make sure" of
anything. If the books want to be
accurate<br clear="none">
> they will use the new name, if not
"shrug" thats their problem. Trust me<br
clear="none">
> someone on amazon will post "Its
not called Open Telecom Platform since<br
clear="none">
> 2014, it stands for "Open
Technology Platform". There are enough
pedantic,<br clear="none">
> basement living, people on the
internet that will annoy authors into<br
clear="none">
> submission.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
That doesn't sound like a pleasant
experience for everyone. Again, it's<br
clear="none">
not an insurmountable challenge. It's just
one more challenge.<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
> 5) Small matter of documentation.
"It used to be called X but was renamed<br
clear="none">
> to Y in 2014"<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
Documentation lives on way longer than
expected. People still read and<br
clear="none">
order reprints of the Erlang book
published in 1994 (and 1996 for the<br
clear="none">
second edition), some of which are
translations.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Many older versions of books are what is
in libraries and whatnot, since<br
clear="none">
Joe's first version in early 2000s. For
people using these versions, you<br
clear="none">
end up with inaccurate terminology
regarding half the name of the<br
clear="none">
language.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
It's a matter of documentation, but it's a
matter of trying to do it<br clear="none">
right to reduce the amount of confusion.
If people look for "Open<br clear="none">
Telecom Platform Erlang" it would be sweet
to get the new documentation<br
clear="none">
and content.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Maybe it's easy, but it's still part of a
roadmap.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Alternatively, would 'Open Telecom
Platform, a framework that is not<br
clear="none">
just about telecoms' going to be more
cumbersome in documentation?<br
clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
> 6) History is history. Those
investigating the language will get it.
It<br clear="none">
> startedo ut being a telecoms thing
and migrated to a general language. No<br
clear="none">
> problem. Live web sites can easily
add in blurbs. Old articles will be out<br
clear="none">
> of date but not from the time frame
of when they were written. No big deal.<br
clear="none">
> The sky isnt actually falling.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
I could see that being made as a decision,
yes.<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
> 7) Obviously this one is just
frothing. The man could update the next<br
clear="none">
> version of his book with more
information, cool tricks, whatever and
sell<br clear="none">
> it as a second edition.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
Yes. I like to insert a bit of non-serious
content here and there.<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
> 8) What "traditional SDK" are you
referring to? The LISP standard lib? ;-)<br
clear="none">
> Java? C? Ruby? Haskell? Which one
is the "normal" one? Normal is defined
in<br clear="none">
> the context of the language, not in
the context of another language? In<br
clear="none">
> fact the vast majority of SDKs for
java are third party to the JDK itself<br
clear="none">
> anyway.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
I went from this thread's usage of SDK as
a similar point to OTP.<br clear="none">
Erlang/SDK if you will. If you want to
keep it as Erlang/OTP, that can<br
clear="none">
work, but needs to be significantly better
than what it is right now to<br
clear="none">
have an actually measurable impact.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Otherwise, we're throwing stuff at the
wall to see what sticks, with no<br
clear="none">
proof that it actually helped anything.<br
clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
> 9) Trying to crystal ball the
future will only give you a headache.
The key<br clear="none">
> is to move from where yo are to a
point where progress has been made and<br
clear="none">
> recursively loop on that algorithm,
not be paralyzed by "what if .... ?"<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
Non-serious content here also. Not to be
taken seriously, but I wouldn't<br
clear="none">
be surprised if it were to happen.<br
clear="none">
<div class="yiv8942092287"><br
clear="none">
> You may have been doing Erlang for
ages and feel quite the man but the<br
clear="none">
> question really boils down to "what
would you like for the future of Erlang<br
clear="none">
> to be?" If the answer to that in
your mind is "A niche language that I
can<br clear="none">
> call myself a guru at and everyone
looks at me quizzically and puts up with<br
clear="none">
> my eccentricity or dare say
arrogance." then the current name and
trend is<br clear="none">
> fine. If the answer is, "A powerful
general purpose programming language<br
clear="none">
> for developing applications using
functional paradigms and widely accepted<br
clear="none">
> as being the solution to the next
generation of software problems." Then<br
clear="none">
> marketing is important.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
Oh I love that one. I want Erlang to be
adopted so much I wrote an<br clear="none">
entire book about it and put it online for
free, without advertisement.<br
clear="none">
This has taken over 3 years of my spare
time, because I wanted Erlang to<br
clear="none">
be more accessible. I invite you to visit
it at<br clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
shape="rect" target="_blank"
href="http://learnyousomeerlang.com/">http://learnyousomeerlang.com</a>,
and maybe buy an ebook or print copy if<br
clear="none">
you feel like it would be nicer to read
that way. If you prefer a free<br
clear="none">
electronic copies, there are scripts on
github to convert it to the<br
clear="none">
kindle format, and a wget line in the FAQ
to download a local copy.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I also kept writing multiple blog posts at
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
shape="rect" target="_blank"
href="http://ferd.ca/">http://ferd.ca</a>
that guide and<br clear="none">
show more tutorials about Erlang, use
cases, and tries to sell it as a<br
clear="none">
language as a whole.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The reason I'm answering to your
suggestion negatively isn't that I<br
clear="none">
don't want Erlang to succeed, it's that I
do not believe that changing<br
clear="none">
the meaning of 'OTP' from 'Open Telecom
Platform' to 'Open Technology<br
clear="none">
Platform' will have a noticeable impact.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Some people do ask the question 'but I
don't want to do telecoms', but<br
clear="none">
in my experience, people's issues are the
following, to a much higher<br
clear="none">
degree:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
- The syntax is unfamiliar (or ugly)<br
clear="none">
- It's difficult to work with single
assignment, recursion, immutable<br
clear="none">
algorithms (most of your algorithm books
that rely on arrays with O(1)<br
clear="none">
access to work fine are no longer going
to be trivial to translate!<br
clear="none">
That's huge!)<br clear="none">
- The tooling (rebar, relx, etc.) isn't up
to par with other languages,<br
clear="none">
even if it keeps getting better.<br
clear="none">
- Lack of IDEs (that was your prime
concern when you joined these lists)<br
clear="none">
- Fighting the idea that "it will be hard
to hire Erlang developers" to<br
clear="none">
make it enter and stay in the
enterprise.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
All of those criticism, in the years I've
been in the Erlang community,<br
clear="none">
have come up time and time again. They've
also have come up orders of<br
clear="none">
magnitude more often than OTP as a name,
even if it does come up from<br
clear="none">
time to time.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I'm sorry I came up as harsh. I do want
better adoption for Erlang and<br
clear="none">
took months if not years of my free time
working that way. I do not<br clear="none">
think renaming OTP is worth the effort,
but I'll be glad to be proven<br
clear="none">
wrong through bigger adoption if someone
steps up and decides to do it.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Now if you please, I'll go back to
spending my lunch time working on an<br
clear="none">
post-scripted chapter to the LYSE site
introducing maps to people.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Regards,<br clear="none">
Fred.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
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