<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>The answer to that seems to be "start more JVMs" on the Java side and then force the concurrency "issues" into the database. It is going to be difficult to "rebuild" the JVM (and the CLR) in a concurrent fashion because of the depth of penetration they have: the inertia alone will keep it from moving. Too many companies have too much code invested, and Sun and Microsoft have both shown that backwards compatibility is paramount, regardless of future pain caused.<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>The flipside of that coin is something like Python, which has the agility and potentially the community, but has far too many use cases in the non-concurrent realm (basic scripting) to want to make that change. I don't think Ruby has the community to make the change. Scala has some interesting aspects, but because it is tied to the anchor of a JVM, they'll be hard pressed to really make it work (all in my opinion, of course :).</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Groovy Actors just seems like a very immature Stackless Python, which, while a reasonable model, is limited significantly by its underlying technology.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>tj</div><div><br><div><div>On Jan 15, 2008, at 12:19 PM, alex alvarez wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><table border="0" width="100%%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" align="center"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="padding-top: 8pt; padding-right: 8pt; padding-bottom: 8pt; padding-left: 8pt; "><font size="2">I myself believe that their biggest hurdle is JVM's ability or inability to scale. Not only internally, but also in terms of system resources. Given that I work daily with huge frameworks, like Java and .NET, I'm wondering how their respective companies intend to move to fully utilization of multi-processor (multi-core) systems. It's very different when you have a (relatively) lite system like Erlang, which in itself was built for this work, compare to systems that huge. Having said that these companies have enough resources and interest to turn things around.<br><br><br><br><br><blockquote style="border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 0.8ex; margin-right: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0pt; padding-bottom: 1ex; "><br>---------[ Received Mail Content ]----------<br><br><b>Subject :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [erlang-questions] concurrency developments<br><br><b>Date :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:47:44 +0300<br><br><b>From :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Kirill Zaborski" <<a href="mailto:qrilka@gmail.com">qrilka@gmail.com</a>><br><br><b>To :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Hynek Vychodil" <<a href="mailto:vychodil.hynek@gmail.com">vychodil.hynek@gmail.com</a>><br><br><b>Cc :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a><br><br><br><br>So you say that performance doesn't matter?<br><br>Somewhat strange statement from engineer.<br><br><br><br>P.S. In some circumstances it can be negligible and I don't deny other<br><br>benefits from immutalbe variables. Just point to not very rare issues with<br><br>Java GC which could be solved in GC assuming immutable variables (which make<br><br>it simpler as far as I understand).<br><br><br><br>Regards,<br><br>Kirill.<br><br><br><br>On Jan 15, 2008 2:37 PM, Hy! nek Vychodil<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><vychodil.hynek@gmail.com>wrote:<br><br><br><br>> It isn't matter of performance, it is about security, reliability and<br><br>> bug hunting.<br><br>><br><br>> On 1/15/08, Kirill Zaborski<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><qrilka@gmail.com>wrote:<br><br>> > And also normally better GC performance coming from immutable variables?<br><br>> Not<br><br>> > requiring intricate GC options.<br><br>> ><br><br>> ><br><br>> > On Jan 15, 2008 1:27 PM, Hynek Vychodil <<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:vychodil.hynek@gmail.com">vychodil.hynek@gmail.com</a>><br><br>> wrote:<br><br>> > ><br><br>> > > ... and where is immutable variables, where is side effect free<br><br>> > > functional programming? Where is funny declarative (easy readable)<br><br>> > > syntax?<br><br>> > ><br><br>> > > Groovy is death way.<br><br>> > ><br><br>> > ><br><br>> > ><br><br>> > ><br><br>> > > On 1/15/08, Christian S<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><chsu79@gmail.com>wrot! e:<br><br>> > > > Where are process links? Where are super vision tree infra-structure?<br><br>> > > > Where is remote-node messaging transparency?<br><br>> > > ><br><br>> > > > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.groovyactors.org/">http://www.groovyactors.org/</a><br><br>> > > > _______________________________________________<br><br>> > > > erlang-questions mailing list<br><br>> > > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a><br><br>> > > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions">http://www.erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions</a><br><br>> > > ><br><br>> > ><br><br>> > ><br><br>> > > --<br><br>> > > --Hynek (Pichi) Vychodil<br><br>> > ><br><br>> > ><br><br>> > ><br><br>> > > _______________________________________________<br><br>> > > erlang-questions mailing list<br><br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a><br><br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions">http://www.erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions</a><br><br>> > ><br><br>> ><br><br>> ><br><br>><br>!<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><br><br>> --<br><br>> --Hynek (Pichi) Vychodil<br><br>><br><br></chsu79@gmail.com></qrilka@gmail.com></vychodil.hynek@gmail.com></blockquote></font></td></tr></tbody></table>_______________________________________________<br>erlang-questions mailing list<br><a href="mailto:erlang-questions@erlang.org">erlang-questions@erlang.org</a><br><a href="http://www.erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions">http://www.erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions</a></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>