[erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.

Sun Mar 24 16:51:18 CET 2019

It also looks like Andrea is having problems with the mailing list so,
I'm going to copy/paste/forward this on his behalf:

-- BEGIN --

Author of the talk here.

I'm sorry if anything I said came off as bad taste or even against the
Code of Conduct. I jokingly said I hate Erlang because I knew a lot of
members in the audience and I thought it was obvious it was a joke (my
bad). I also said "just kidding" but maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I did comment that Erlang's simple_one_for_one is confusing (which I do
believe it is). I could probably have expanded on that though, instead
of leaving it as a brief remark. But I don't think criticizing Erlang is
not allowed, same as I don't think criticizing Elixir is not permitted,
and that's why I felt free to make the comment.

I did not make fun of Joe. I included two pictures of him in the
presentation that I found on Google, since he is an important and known
figure in both Erlang and Elixir communities. One of them was a silly
meme about how great hot code swapping is but severely underused. I will
reach out to Joe and apologize if I stepped out of line.

Arif, I agree with you that "Elixir Architecture 101" is a bad title and
the presentation was definitely about Erlang/OTP first and foremost.
That's why I never said "Elixir application" or "this is how you do this
in Elixir", but always said "Elixir and Erlang" or "Erlang and Elixir".
I'm aware Elixir doesn't exist without Erlang and I'm not at all
ungrateful for Erlang. You will also see the same in Elixir
documentation and most of its ecosystem: you are not building an "Elixir
application" or a "Phoenix application", but an Erlang/OTP one.

In other talks I've often said things that promote the use of Erlang in
the Elixir community and that promote the cooperation between the
communities, which is something I strongly believe in.

Anyhow, sorry for the mess. I'll do better next time.

Cheers,

Andrea Leopardi
an.leopardi@REDACTED <mailto:an.leopardi@REDACTED>

-- END --

On 3/24/19 5:40 AM, Joe Armstrong wrote:
> Well I can't really comment on the talk since I wasn't there - so all
> I can comment
> on are the comments I've read here.
>
> I for one welcome all the things the Elixir folks are doing - but I
> have noticed the following:
>
> - Elixir folks are re-using Erlang libraries
> - Erlang folks are not (it seems to me) reusing Elixir libraries
>
> The "how to call Erlang from Elixir" documentation is great - the
> opposite "how to call Elixir from Elixir" is not (or have I missed something)
>
> Things like nerves, scenic, Phoenix etc. look great to me - but seem to be used
> almost exclusively by Elixir folks.
>
> Has anybody made, for example, a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
>
> As for things said in talks that upset people - I have done this myself
> on several occasions - you say something that gets misinterpreted
> and then everybody gets upset and they don't talk about the subject
> of the talk but about the thing that annoyed them.
>
> Andrea mailed me off-list with an apology - funny really when somebody
> mails you apologising for something that you didn't even know had happened
> but nice of him to do so ...
>
> I'm just curious - has anybody made a pure Erlang interface to scenic?
>
> And since this is the erlang list - how about joining the elixir forum
> so you can get
> an idea of what's going on over there - lot's of fun stuff I see
>
> Cheers
>
> /Joe
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 8:27 PM Bryan Paxton <starbelly@REDACTED> wrote:
>>   You need a lagom bottles of scotch :)
>>
>> On 3/23/19 2:21 PM, alex@REDACTED wrote:
>>
>> WTF!  They are messing up with Joe?!  No triggering...internalize what?  What's his name and address?!!  I'm flying in.  Need a bottle of scotch and a map in that same order.  LOL!
>>
>> On 3/23/19 2:22 PM, Bryan Paxton wrote:
>>
>>  No, no... no triggering happened :) It's better to talk than to internalize... so I'm glad you brought this up. Communication is the only way to resolve misunderstanding :) :heart:
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bryan
>>
>>
>> On 3/23/19 1:15 PM, arif wrote:
>>
>> ok. i’ll take your word for it. it’s quite possible i got it wrong  and i’m sorry to have triggered this then.
>> thanks for sharing your thoughts
>> Arif
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23 Mar 2019, at 18:22, Bryan Paxton <starbelly@REDACTED> wrote:
>>
>>  FWIW the speaker in question has never come across to me as being hostile towards Erlang, etc. They have always been very laid back, open to ideas, erlang, etc. In fact, I was talking to them about Erlang earlier this week and they encouraged me to talk about Erlang in an Elixir dominated environment :) So, I have to assume that things came across the wrong way due to language barriers, etc.  Jokes in particular get lost in translation easily and can be seen as something hostile or malicious...  The folly of language.
>>
>>  Then there's always the possibility the talk was a behavioral experiment :)
>>
>>    But I'm glad we got a line of communication open as that's the only way that squashes these issues. The BEAM communities need group therapy sometimes IMO :)
>>
>>  There's been a lot of hostility from the Erlang community towards Elixir in the past... and I wonder if the echoes of all that are so ingrained in some of us that we have knee jerk reactions sometimes (i.e., we hear something from an Elixir speaker and absolutely take it the wrong way). Having come from Elixir to Erlang I very much have seen both sides of that coin. I know this much....
>>
>>  The main thing... Elixir is Erlang, LFE is Elang, Efene is Erlang, Gleam is Erlang, etc.... While from one side it appears Elixir is another language... I don't think many, especially in the Elixir community feel that way... especially core members, syntactical differences aside Elixir is erlang. BEAM on!
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bryan
>>
>>
>> On 3/23/19 11:57 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
>>
>> I hear you. One can only hope. Those things always happen, though, almost invariably. I guess it has mostly to do with the desire to carve one's own niche.
>>
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:46 Uhr
>> Von: "Bryan Paxton" <starbelly@REDACTED>
>> An: "Oliver Korpilla" <Oliver.Korpilla@REDACTED>
>> Cc: arif@REDACTED, erlang-questions@REDACTED
>> Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
>>
>>  I hear ya... I was being lazy :) I see who it is and I have to wonder if some of what he said was in gest? Maybe just didn't come across right? I hope so :(
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bryan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/23/19 11:44 AM, Oliver Korpilla wrote:
>>
>> I'd prefer no calling out of the name, what good will that do?
>>
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2019 um 17:36 Uhr
>> Von: "Bryan Paxton" <starbelly@REDACTED>
>> An: arif@REDACTED, erlang-questions@REDACTED
>> Betreff: Re: [erlang-questions] Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please demand it.
>>  Who was the speaker?
>>
>> On 3/23/19 11:13 AM, arif@REDACTED wrote:
>>> Yesterday I attended the Code Beam Lite conference in Bologna, Italy. It
>>> ended with a keynote by an Elixir Core Team member, entitled "Elixir
>>> Architecture 101".
>>>
>>> At the end of an otherwise interesting talk, which started with the
>>> presenter saying he hated Erlang (some in the audience found it funny)
>>> and in which he occasionally made fun of Joe and of the perceived
>>> shortcomings of Erlang, I couldn’t help wonder where Elixir was in all
>>> that talk, since the “Elixir” architecture presented, was practically
>>> OTP.
>>>
>>> I find this very much in bad taste and not helpful towards a beneficial
>>> sharing and spreading of knowledge. I don’t know if the Code of Conduct
>>> of the Code Beam conferences contemplates this, but I would favour
>>> forbidding it.
>>>
>>> If Elixir has something good to offer, and I think it has, let its
>>> community showcase that, advance the common good and knowledge, and not
>>> promote its cause through what, in my eyes, would amount to plagiarism,
>>> viz. letting things pass for Elixir, when they are Erlang/OTP, nor
>>> through ridiculing anyone or anything, least of all the very things or
>>> persons that made it even possible. It not only looks childish to me, I
>>> believe it is also damaging to the many excellent minds in the very
>>> Elixir community.
>>>
>>> Elixir community, please be more responsible; Erlang community, please
>>> demand it.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> erlang-questions mailing list
>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED
>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> erlang-questions@REDACTED
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> erlang-questions@REDACTED
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> erlang-questions@REDACTED
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> erlang-questions mailing list
>> erlang-questions@REDACTED
>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/attachments/20190324/51a9c86f/attachment.htm>