[erlang-questions] erlang-questions Digest, Vol 360, Issue 10
Roman Rabinovich
find.roman@REDACTED
Tue Feb 13 01:27:06 CET 2018
What is this bull, I'm not interested in naming conventions. It's not
Erlang related so stop sending it.
On 12 Feb 2018 7:25 pm, <erlang-questions-request@REDACTED> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency
> management and deploying Erlang services (Miguel Morales)
> 2. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency
> management and deploying Erlang services (Joe Armstrong)
> 3. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency
> management and deploying Erlang services (Vlad Dumitrescu)
> 4. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency
> management and deploying Erlang services (Eric des Courtis)
> 5. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency
> management and deploying Erlang services (Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya)
> 6. Re: Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency
> management and deploying Erlang services (Stefan Strigler)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:38:26 -0800
> From: Miguel Morales <therevoltingx@REDACTED>
> To: "Lloyd R. Prentice" <lloyd@REDACTED>
> Cc: Erlang <erlang-questions@REDACTED>
> Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang
> packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
> Message-ID:
> <CAMq-y22VSqXJ-ehrVgK1MMkR2axdFi4CvE36a5gtEF1
> JjXficw@REDACTED>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I'm a hispanic developer in North America. This name is certainly
> offensive. I'm a big proponent of free speech and am against overreaching
> social justice causes.
> However, in this case, if you want the project to succeed I highly
> recommend changing the name.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Lloyd R. Prentice <lloyd@REDACTED>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Jesper and Joe do make good sense to me.
> >
> > And, more, I would like to see much more informed debate on the technical
> > merits of this new tool.
> >
> > As aside, however, I haven?t seen so much activity on this list since I
> > first subscribed some four years ago.
> >
> > Note that we haven?t heard from any North American black Erlang
> > programmers on this list. Why would that be?
> >
> > I?m a privileged, white (so far as I know from my spotty genealogy,
> > although the recent work on the Chadwick man casts some doubt),
> provincial
> > North American male.
> >
> > Some in my genetic/gender/national cohort feel that our group is being
> > grievously discriminated against. I don?t happen to feel so for plenty of
> > socio-economic reasons.
> >
> > Nevertheless, the name of this new tool did seem unfortunate in the
> > extreme to me. Were my skin black, from everything I know, I would
> > definitely feel a twinge of pain and resentment every time one of the
> many
> > words used historically to define me as less than a respected human being
> > was tossed around in casual conversation.
> >
> > But some on this list are correct. One can be overly sensitive and some
> > groups do exploit these sensitivities for politely advantage.
> >
> > Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that naming of software packages in
> > these times has many cross-cultural implications.
> >
> > For us, that is the Erlang community, the big question is how can we
> learn
> > and grow together regardless of our respective cultural heritages? How
> can
> > we minimize the contentious bickering and trolling that has infected so
> > much discourse across the web?
> >
> > Tribalism is a reality in our world. Every tribe has its own taboos,
> > sensitivities, and moral blind spots.
> >
> > But our world is ever more interconnected and interdependent. Empathy and
> > respect for the feelings of others can go a long way toward reducing the
> > friction of cross-cultural exchange. As can respectful discussion of
> > differences.
> >
> > For me, this thread reinforces my belief in this principle.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > LRP
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <
> > jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <erlang@REDACTED> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1
> >> checksum of
> >> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
> >> from those who
> >> thought the name could be a tad simpler.
> >>
> >>
> > I might have said this before, but here goes:
> >
> > Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name
> to
> > the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of
> > headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
> >
> > It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As
> > in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6
> > months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
> >
> > I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why
> > it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a
> > content-addressable-store for your packages.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > erlang-questions mailing list
> > erlang-questions@REDACTED
> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen <
> > jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <erlang@REDACTED> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1
> >> checksum of
> >> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
> >> from those who
> >> thought the name could be a tad simpler.
> >>
> >>
> > I might have said this before, but here goes:
> >
> > Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name
> to
> > the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of
> > headaches when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
> >
> > It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period. As
> > in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6
> > months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
> >
> > I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why
> > it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a
> > content-addressable-store for your packages.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > erlang-questions mailing list
> > erlang-questions@REDACTED
> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > erlang-questions mailing list
> > erlang-questions@REDACTED
> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 22:58:01 +0100
> From: Joe Armstrong <erlang@REDACTED>
> To: Vlad Dumitrescu <vladdu55@REDACTED>
> Cc: Erlang <erlang-questions@REDACTED>
> Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang
> packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
> Message-ID:
> <CAANBt-q3xXoE6-dWey+WNQex8Nqp=DakkxKCCrPXauc8vgnO7
> w@REDACTED>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu <vladdu55@REDACTED>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen
> > <jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <erlang@REDACTED> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1
> >>> checksum of
> >>> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
> >>> from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I might have said this before, but here goes:
> >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the name
> to
> >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of
> headaches
> >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
> >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period.
> As
> >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people 6
> >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
> >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried, why
> >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a
> >> content-addressable-store for your packages.
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a
> package
> > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies list
> of
> > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names
> > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package
> is
> > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a
> > reference points.
>
> The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of
> names - this list of
> checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package).
>
> A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different
> human readable names
> are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum.
>
> Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly
> obvious reasons of
> convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or
> appropriate.
>
> For a given content the checksum is unique.
>
> To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of
>
> {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of
> the checksum over time
>
> Should be easy (Famous last words rule applies here)
>
> Cheers
>
> /Joe
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that is
> > stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it is
> > useful except for tools.
> >
> > best regards,
> > Vlad
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 23:36:37 +0100
> From: Vlad Dumitrescu <vladdu55@REDACTED>
> To: Joe Armstrong <erlang@REDACTED>
> Cc: Erlang <erlang-questions@REDACTED>
> Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang
> packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
> Message-ID:
> <CAA-EFXuQDn4DX1NjikcNKBW+WjAu7pqeFm+=rcuZuajuQ0e4_w@
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:58 PM, Joe Armstrong <erlang@REDACTED> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu <vladdu55@REDACTED>
> > wrote:
> > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen
> > > <jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote:
> > >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the
> name
> > to
> > >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of
> > headaches
> > >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
> > >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period.
> > As
> > >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people
> 6
> > >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
> > >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried,
> why
> > >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a
> > >> content-addressable-store for your packages.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a
> > package
> > > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies
> list
> > of
> > > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names
> > > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package
> > is
> > > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a
> > > reference points.
> >
> > The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of
> > names - this list of
> > checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package).
> >
> > A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different
> > human readable names
> > are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum.
> >
> > Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly
> > obvious reasons of
> > convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or
> > appropriate.
> >
> > For a given content the checksum is unique.
> >
> > To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of
> >
> > {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of
> > the checksum over time
> >
>
> Thanks for the explanation, I understand the mechanics, but not the "real
> world usage".
>
> * A checksum referes to a {package_name, time} tuple, so there is no way to
> refer to the package in general. Except by its name.
>
> * Even if there was, nobody is going to say "For a gizmo processing
> library, we have to choose
> between B17556DB683000BA50370B16C0619DF1337E7AF7ECBF7D64FBF8D1D6BCE3109B
> and 7ACC7D785B5ABE8A6E9ADBDE926A24E481F29956DD8B4DF49E3E4E7BCC92A018,
> which
> one is better?" So people will use names.
>
> * Now the project is presumably configured in a file, written by a
> programmer - again the name will be used. The hash can be retrieved and
> stored by the build tool, so that we get a hard reference...
>
> * ... which is exactly what rebar and mix do with hex.pm (if I get it
> right), except they use the version string instead of timestamp. So if
> hex.pm keeps track of timestamps and of historical mappings between names
> and hashes, then it's done!
>
> * However, the imprecision of using names remains because we're humans.
> Tools already use hashes.
>
> Am I misunderstanding something?
>
> best regards,
> Vlad
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:55:29 -0500
> From: Eric des Courtis <eric.des.courtis@REDACTED>
> To: Erlang <erlang-questions@REDACTED>
> Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang
> packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
> Message-ID:
> <CAESEstpwjVYXcmqkPoZTBeHaR2mN2sRsuWmkF1jAGZZX9y3smg@REDACTED
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Everyone, stop acting like a bunch of Java programmers and get back to
> work!
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Joe Armstrong <erlang@REDACTED> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:06 PM, Vlad Dumitrescu <vladdu55@REDACTED>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen
> > > <jesper.louis.andersen@REDACTED> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:58 PM Joe Armstrong <erlang@REDACTED>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I have said on many occasions that code should be named by the SHA1
> > >>> checksum of
> > >>> the content - as far as I know this would not offend people - apart
> > >>> from those who thought the name could be a tad simpler.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I might have said this before, but here goes:
> > >> Using a cryptographic checksum for a package and then pointing the
> name
> > to
> > >> the checksum would have saved Node.js npm package manager a lot of
> > headaches
> > >> when people remove, rename or otherwise destroy packages.
> > >> It also allows you to comply with legal requests with a sunset period.
> > As
> > >> in "I hear you, and the name will be given to you. But we give people
> 6
> > >> months time to upgrade before we remove the old checksummed packages".
> > >> I'm interested in why someone did not try this yet. Or if one tried,
> why
> > >> it didn't work out. It seems very obvious to build a
> > >> content-addressable-store for your packages.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm not sure I understand this completely. Using the checksum of a
> > package
> > > as identifier is IMHO only useful if it is used in the dependencies
> list
> > of
> > > other packages. If the deps list uses names (and people will use names
> > > anyway, not checksums), then the problem remains that in case a package
> > is
> > > renamed and another one reuses the name, we don't know to which one a
> > > reference points.
> >
> > The dependency list should be a list of checksums and NOT a list of
> > names - this list of
> > checksums has itself a checksum (the "true" name of the package).
> >
> > A human readable name is just an alias to a checksum - two different
> > human readable names
> > are the "same" if they are aliases to the same checksum.
> >
> > Basically files should be named by their checksums - for fairly
> > obvious reasons of
> > convenience tools should hide or reveal these names when necessary or
> > appropriate.
> >
> > For a given content the checksum is unique.
> >
> > To handle renamings you just need a lookup table of
> >
> > {Name, Time, Checksum} tuples that tracks changes to the name of
> > the checksum over time
> >
> > Should be easy (Famous last words rule applies here)
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > /Joe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Anyway, hex.pm has a field named "checksum" and it is that value that
> is
> > > stored in rebar.lock. So the hash key is there, but I don't see how it
> is
> > > useful except for tools.
> > >
> > > best regards,
> > > Vlad
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > erlang-questions mailing list
> > erlang-questions@REDACTED
> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 05:21:32 +0530
> From: Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya <mahesh@REDACTED>
> To: Erlang <erlang-questions@REDACTED>
> Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang
> packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
> Message-ID:
> <CANE44zDif6WyD+xjEFWror9X1TvSEv2-TvjcR46+
> M3HPPTUoTQ@REDACTED>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is
> perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, *depending on the reach* - what
> might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San
> Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have ADL
> database
> <https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols?cat_id[147]=147>
> auto-completing
> in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far.
>
> Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you *want* to appeal to racists
> and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in quite a
> bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, and someone
> points out to you that your choice of words may not be the wisest choice,
> well, you might want to reconsider it (?). Note that the point here isn't
> "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, and thats about all
> that matters - remember, this is about the marketing aspects of naming.
>
> Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask yourself
> how they might feel about your actions. Not how they *should* feel, but how
> they might *actually* feel.
>
> Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been a *long*
> while
> - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from that upbringing
> has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the receiving end of
> stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, casual and explicit
> racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that privilege. It's not an
> explicit thing - it's having been part of an entire culture where being
> brahmin means I'm better than *those people*.
>
> Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, money,
> in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, and working
> cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, and the last
> thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix.
>
> Cheers
>
> (?) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly
> disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did not
> know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans - and about the
> only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist faux-westerns
> by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to my
> graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid)
> discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev <jamhedd@REDACTED> wrote:
>
> > The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but
> Fred
> > speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could they,
> or
> > could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not present).
> Maybe
> > the same people could be offended by other words as well, how do we know?
> > And should we really care (having quite offensive names in the wild
> > already)? Should we run all possible project names through the council of
> > these people?
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin <zkessin@REDACTED>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through
> >> something like this in a different context and I have to say "its not
> >> reasonable that <Group> is offended" is a pretty bad apology.
> >> ?
> >>
> >> Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software
> >> I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics
> >> +972 54 234 3956 <+972%2054-234-3956> / +44 203 734 9790
> >> <+44%2020%203734%209790> / +1 617 778 7213 <(617)%20778-7213>
> >> Book a meeting with me <https://calendly.com/zkessin/chatbot>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert <mononcqc@REDACTED> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <zxq9@REDACTED> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> >>>> > Intent does not matter.
> >>>>
> >>>> No.
> >>>>
> >>>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds
> with
> >>>> you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own
> >>>> part. On technical subjects, anyway.
> >>>>
> >>>> But... INTENT
> >>>>
> >>>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against
> >>>> the weight of history.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god
> >>> damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find
> this
> >>> kind of shit offensive.
> >>>
> >>> I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine
> >>> with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent
> time
> >>> with both professionally and personally.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care
> >>>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW
> flippancy is
> >>>> not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these
> days.
> >>>> That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not
> just
> >>>> in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a
> concrete
> >>>> socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other
> >>>> parties we enjoy.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very
> >>> reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*.
> >>>
> >>> Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban
> >>> Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms:
> >>>
> >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon
> >>> Insulting term for a black person
> >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo
> >>> An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the
> >>> meaning of the picture. Usually found in captions.
> >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat
> >>> The definitive pet.
> >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog
> >>> Not a cat
> >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox
> >>> A beautiful and attractive woman
> >>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale
> >>> noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by a
> >>> casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more
> money.
> >>>
> >>> Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one.
> >>>
> >>> *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib is
> >>> racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original
> intent,
> >>> the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation.
> Look
> >>> this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of the
> >>> author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author):
> >>>
> >>> In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and
> criticism
> >>>> that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their political views,
> >>>> historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other
> biographical
> >>>> or personal attributes?to distill meaning from the author's work. In
> this
> >>>> type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a
> >>>> definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of
> reading
> >>>> may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and
> flawed:
> >>>> "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding
> >>>> interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".
> >>>>
> >>>> [...]
> >>>>
> >>>> In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and
> >>>> textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of
> quotations",
> >>>> drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one,
> >>>> individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the
> >>>> impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of
> the
> >>>> writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator,
> "but in
> >>>> its destination", or its audience.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be
> >>> around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author
> intends
> >>> is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away
> >>> from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be
> visible and
> >>> enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the
> system you
> >>> are attempting to criticize.
> >>>
> >>> Intent does not matter.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Riddle me this:
> >>>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE
> >>>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we
> >>>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value
> >>>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software
> systems)
> >>>> that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is
> this
> >>>> all brought back to a "reasonble default"?
> >>>>
> >>>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound
> >>>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly
> >>>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up
> >>>> eventualy going.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in this
> >>> context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that
> *raccoon*
> >>> was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that other people
> >>> will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is downright
> absurd
> >>> and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining every single
> >>> person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have taken the
> >>> losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die on.
> What
> >>> I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how much
> >>> windmill tilting you'll get into.
> >>>
> >>> If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it
> >>> crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail
> >>> early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct
> >>> corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass
> >>> project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck
> trying to
> >>> handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this
> >>> way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW
> >>> Flippancy.* Loic brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make a
> >>> tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made
> any
> >>> difference the moment this gets out of here.
> >>>
> >>> If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking
> >>> place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning
> sign
> >>> to you?
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> erlang-questions mailing list
> >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED
> >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> erlang-questions mailing list
> >> erlang-questions@REDACTED
> >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > With best regards,
> > Roman Galeev,
> > +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > erlang-questions mailing list
> > erlang-questions@REDACTED
> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> *Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya
> <http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/204a87f81a0d9764c1f3364f53e8facf.png>That
> tall bald Indian guy..*
> *Twitter <https://twitter.com/dieswaytoofast> | Blog
> <http://dieswaytoofast.blogspot.com/> | G+
> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/108074935470209044442/posts> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/dieswaytoofast>*
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 00:25:05 +0000
> From: Stefan Strigler <stefan.strigler@REDACTED>
> To: Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya <mahesh@REDACTED>
> Cc: Erlang <erlang-questions@REDACTED>
> Subject: Re: [erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang
> packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services
> Message-ID:
> <CAE7Uswfz4EfwGqaYo+kXjhXBTYfffFhq5z6u2G=xPfc07x6r
> 7A@REDACTED>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> +1 Mahesh, you're the best, thanks for taking that effort!
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:51 AM Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya <
> mahesh@REDACTED> wrote:
>
> > Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is
> > perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, *depending on the reach* - what
> > might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San
> > Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have ADL
> > database
> > <https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols?cat_id[147]=147>
> auto-completing
> > in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far.
> >
> > Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you *want* to appeal to racists
> > and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in
> quite a
> > bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, and
> someone
> > points out to you that your choice of words may not be the wisest choice,
> > well, you might want to reconsider it (?). Note that the point here isn't
> > "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, and thats about
> all
> > that matters - remember, this is about the marketing aspects of naming.
> >
> > Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask yourself
> > how they might feel about your actions. Not how they *should* feel, but
> > how they might *actually* feel.
> >
> > Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been a *long*
> while
> > - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from that upbringing
> > has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the receiving end of
> > stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, casual and explicit
> > racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that privilege. It's not
> an
> > explicit thing - it's having been part of an entire culture where being
> > brahmin means I'm better than *those people*.
> >
> > Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes,
> money,
> > in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, and
> working
> > cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, and the last
> > thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > (?) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly
> > disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did
> not
> > know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans - and about the
> > only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist
> faux-westerns
> > by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to my
> > graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid)
> > discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev <jamhedd@REDACTED> wrote:
> >
> >> The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but
> >> Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could
> >> they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not
> >> present). Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as
> well,
> >> how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names
> in
> >> the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the
> >> council of these people?
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin <zkessin@REDACTED>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through something
> like this in a different context and I have to say
> >>> "its not reasonable that <Group> is offended" is a pretty bad apology.
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>> Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software
> >>> I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics
> >>> +972 54 234 3956 <+972%2054-234-3956> / +44 203 734 9790
> >>> <+44%2020%203734%209790> / +1 617 778 7213 <(617)%20778-7213>
> >>> Book a meeting with me <https://calendly.com/zkessin/chatbot>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert <mononcqc@REDACTED> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <zxq9@REDACTED> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 2018?2?12???? 10?16?51? JST Fred Hebert wrote:
> >>>>> > Intent does not matter.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds
> >>>>> with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for
> my own
> >>>>> part. On technical subjects, anyway.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But... INTENT
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win
> against
> >>>>> the weight of history.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god
> >>>> damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do
> find this
> >>>> kind of shit offensive.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine
> >>>> with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent
> time
> >>>> with both professionally and personally.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you
> care
> >>>>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW
> flippancy is
> >>>>> not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going
> these days.
> >>>>> That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one,
> not just
> >>>>> in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a
> concrete
> >>>>> socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other
> >>>>> parties we enjoy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very
> >>>> reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*.
> >>>>
> >>>> Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban
> >>>> Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms:
> >>>>
> >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon
> >>>> Insulting term for a black person
> >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo
> >>>> An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the
> >>>> meaning of the picture. Usually found in captions.
> >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat
> >>>> The definitive pet.
> >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog
> >>>> Not a cat
> >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox
> >>>> A beautiful and attractive woman
> >>>> - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale
> >>>> noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by
> >>>> a casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more
> money.
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one.
> >>>>
> >>>> *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib
> >>>> is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original
> >>>> intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's
> interpretation.
> >>>> Look this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of
> >>>> the author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author):
> >>>>
> >>>> In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and
> >>>>> criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity?their
> political
> >>>>> views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other
> >>>>> biographical or personal attributes?to distill meaning from the
> author's
> >>>>> work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the
> author
> >>>>> serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this
> method
> >>>>> of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually
> sloppy and
> >>>>> flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding
> >>>>> interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and
> >>>>> textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of
> quotations",
> >>>>> drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one,
> >>>>> individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the
> >>>>> impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of
> the
> >>>>> writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator,
> "but in
> >>>>> its destination", or its audience.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be
> >>>> around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author
> intends
> >>>> is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get
> away
> >>>> from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be
> visible and
> >>>> enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the
> system you
> >>>> are attempting to criticize.
> >>>>
> >>>> Intent does not matter.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Riddle me this:
> >>>>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE
> WRITE
> >>>>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that
> we
> >>>>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value
> >>>>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software
> systems)
> >>>>> that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is
> this
> >>>>> all brought back to a "reasonble default"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound
> >>>>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly
> >>>>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up
> >>>>> eventualy going.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in
> >>>> this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that
> >>>> *raccoon* was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that
> >>>> other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same
> is
> >>>> downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on
> explaining
> >>>> every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you
> have
> >>>> taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you
> die
> >>>> on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of
> how
> >>>> much windmill tilting you'll get into.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it
> >>>> crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail
> >>>> early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to
> correct
> >>>> corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid
> ass
> >>>> project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck
> trying to
> >>>> handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it
> this
> >>>> way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW
> >>>> Flippancy.* Loic brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make
> >>>> a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that
> made any
> >>>> difference the moment this gets out of here.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking
> >>>> place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning
> sign
> >>>> to you?
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> erlang-questions mailing list
> >>>> erlang-questions@REDACTED
> >>>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> erlang-questions mailing list
> >>> erlang-questions@REDACTED
> >>> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> With best regards,
> >> Roman Galeev,
> >> +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> erlang-questions mailing list
> >> erlang-questions@REDACTED
> >> http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > *Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya
> > <http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/204a87f81a0d9764c1f3364f53e8facf.png
> >That
> > tall bald Indian guy..*
> > *Twitter <https://twitter.com/dieswaytoofast> | Blog
> > <http://dieswaytoofast.blogspot.com/> | G+
> > <https://plus.google.com/u/0/108074935470209044442/posts> | LinkedIn
> > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/dieswaytoofast>*
> > _______________________________________________
> > erlang-questions mailing list
> > erlang-questions@REDACTED
> > http://erlang.org/mailman/listinfo/erlang-questions
> >
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