[erlang-questions] Coon - new tool for building Erlang packages, dependency management and deploying Erlang services

Tue Feb 13 01:25:05 CET 2018

+1 Mahesh, you're the best, thanks for taking that effort!


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:51 AM Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya <
mahesh@REDACTED> wrote:

> Identifiers matter. They tell the world a lot about how something is
> perceived. Naming can get awfully hard, *depending on the reach* - what
> might work really well in rural Alabama might not work so well in San
> Francisco (and vice-versa). If you're in Branding, and don't have  ADL
> database
> <https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols?cat_id[147]=147> auto-completing
> in your URL-bar, you're not going to get very far.
>
> Intent matters. Of course it does. Maybe you *want* to appeal to racists
> and nationalists - I mean, its' working quite well as a strategy in quite a
> bit of the world these days. On the other hand, if you *don't*, and someone
> points out to you that your choice of words may not be the wisest choice,
> well, you might want to reconsider it (•). Note that the point here isn't
> "people shouldn't be offended". People *are* offended, and thats about all
> that matters - remember, this is about the marketing aspects of naming.
>
> Empathy matters. Put yourself in somebody else's shoes - and ask yourself
> how they might feel about your actions. Not how they *should* feel, but
> how they might *actually* feel.
>
> Privilege matters. I grew up as a Brahmin, in India. It's been a *long* while
> - 30 years - since the default privilege that comes from that upbringing
> has been useful, but even now, when I end up on the receiving end of
> stop-and-frisked, being brown in the wrong place, casual and explicit
> racist invective, and the works, I fall back on that privilege. It's not an
> explicit thing - it's having been part of an entire culture where being
> brahmin means I'm better than *those people*.
>
> Employee retention matters. I spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, money,
> in getting people up to speed, developing trust in each other, and working
> cohesively as a team. It's a delicate thing, this balance, and the last
> thing I need is casual racism or gender-issues into the mix.
>
> Cheers
>
> (•) In the 70s, I pretty freely using the n-word. I grew up in a fairly
> disconnected part of India at the time (Kanpur), and we, literally, did not
> know (and heck, hadn't ever seen) any african-americans - and about the
> only context around this we had was some spectacularly racist faux-westerns
> by an author named J.T.Edson. Fast-forward a few years, to my
> graduate-school days in the U.S at Notre Dame, and my (pretty rapid)
> discovery that, well, I probably shouldn't.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:38 PM, Roman Galeev <jamhedd@REDACTED> wrote:
>
>> The worst part of it that nobody is offended at this very moment, but
>> Fred speaks for people who could be offended, in his opinion. But could
>> they, or could they not nobody knows (except them, but they are not
>> present). Maybe the same people could be offended by other words as well,
>> how do we know? And should we really care (having quite offensive names in
>> the wild already)? Should we run all possible project names through the
>> council of these people?
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Zachary Kessin <zkessin@REDACTED>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to second what Fred said. I just went through something like this in a different context and I have to say
>>> "its not reasonable that <Group> is offended" is a pretty bad apology.
>>> ᐧ
>>>
>>> Zach Kessin - CEO Finch Software
>>> I boost sales with retail chatbots for fashion and cosmetics
>>> +972 54 234 3956 <+972%2054-234-3956> / +44 203 734 9790
>>> <+44%2020%203734%209790> / +1 617 778 7213 <(617)%20778-7213>
>>> Book a meeting with me <https://calendly.com/zkessin/chatbot>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Fred Hebert <mononcqc@REDACTED> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:29 AM, <zxq9@REDACTED> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2018年2月12日月曜日 10時16分51秒 JST Fred Hebert wrote:
>>>>> > Intent does not matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> No.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred, I have enormous respect for you and have gone several rounds
>>>>> with you on several subjects, each time having learned something for my own
>>>>> part. On technical subjects, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> But... INTENT
>>>>>
>>>>> You are demonstraby wrong already. Just stop. You will not win against
>>>>> the weight of history.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am not wrong in not wanting to ever introduce this library in my god
>>>> damn workplace. Because I know and have worked with people who do find this
>>>> kind of shit offensive.
>>>>
>>>> I'm happy you live in a place and in a context where everyone is fine
>>>> with that. This has not been the reality of the people I have spent time
>>>> with both professionally and personally.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is becoming some SJW ridiculousness already, not because you care
>>>>> about that but because of the ambient temperature. I know SJW flippancy is
>>>>> not your intent, but that is the only place this winds up going these days.
>>>>> That is not a small failure -- it quickly becomes a systemic one, not just
>>>>> in a concurrent software system of ephemeral importance, but a concrete
>>>>> socio-economic one of critical importance that pays for all the other
>>>>> parties we enjoy.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised that you find the idea that using a term that can very
>>>> reasonably be construed as racist is *SJW flippancy*.
>>>>
>>>> Let's take a quick look by looking at first definitions on Urban
>>>> Dictionary for a game. I picked random animal names or short terms:
>>>>
>>>>    - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coon
>>>>    Insulting term for a black person
>>>>    - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doggo
>>>>    An alternate term for a dog used on meme pages to express the
>>>>    meaning of the picture. Usually found in captions.
>>>>    - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cat
>>>>    The definitive pet.
>>>>    - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog
>>>>    Not a cat
>>>>    - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fox
>>>>    A beautiful and attractive woman
>>>>    - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whale
>>>>    noun; a wealthy patron to a casino, gets paid special attention by
>>>>    a casino host so the patron will feel comfortable to gamble more money.
>>>>
>>>>  Oh hm. Sorry I guess the usage is really forgotten for that one.
>>>>
>>>> *Intent does not matter* is not me saying that the author of the lib
>>>> is racist or ill-intended. It's me saying that no matter the original
>>>> intent, the consequences will be the result of the reader's interpretation.
>>>> Look this is even a principle in literary review called *The death of
>>>> the author* (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author):
>>>>
>>>> In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and
>>>>> criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity—their political
>>>>> views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other
>>>>> biographical or personal attributes—to distill meaning from the author's
>>>>> work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author
>>>>> serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method
>>>>> of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and
>>>>> flawed: "To give a text an author" and assign a single, corresponding
>>>>> interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> In a well-known quotation, Barthes draws an analogy between text and
>>>>> textiles, declaring that a "text is a tissue [or fabric] of quotations",
>>>>> drawn from "innumerable centers of culture", rather than from one,
>>>>> individual experience. The essential meaning of a work depends on the
>>>>> impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the
>>>>> writer; "a text's unity lies not in its origins", or its creator, "but in
>>>>> its destination", or its audience.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The whole point is that you cannot reasonably expect the author to be
>>>> around to give meaning and maintain these things. What the author intends
>>>> is not relevant in the long run because the interpretation can get away
>>>> from it. It's like in satire: good satire/irony/sarcasm must be visible and
>>>> enough in your face that it won't be construed as supporting the system you
>>>> are attempting to criticize.
>>>>
>>>> Intent does not matter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Riddle me this:
>>>>> If we cannot undersand enough about the software systems that WE WRITE
>>>>> OURSELVES that we need the "let it crash" mentality, how is it that we
>>>>> somehow understand to a manifest degree the economic and social value
>>>>> systems (which are profoundly more complex than our petty software systems)
>>>>> that we can dictate value within them? By what restart mechanism is this
>>>>> all brought back to a "reasonble default"?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sincerely desirous of an answer here, because I have a profound
>>>>> respect for your intellect but cannot imagine that you have properly
>>>>> considered the alternatives or where this path of discourse winds up
>>>>> eventualy going.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I very much stand by *intent does not matter*. It matters to me in
>>>> this context and I do not yet judge Valery negatively, I trust that
>>>> *raccoon* was indeed the original name intent. It does not mean that
>>>> other people will do the same. Expecting other people to do the same is
>>>> downright absurd and foolish. If your entire position relies on explaining
>>>> every single person the origin of the name for things to go well, you have
>>>> taken the losing battle of tilting at windmills. This is the hill you die
>>>> on. What I'm doing here is giving a really fucking serious warning of how
>>>> much windmill tilting you'll get into.
>>>>
>>>> If you want me to go by the *Let it Crash* maxim, the idea of *let it
>>>> crash* is to not try to handle all the errors and letting them fail
>>>> early and often. Start from a clean slate rather than trying to correct
>>>> corrupted state. What I'm doing here is trying to crash this stupid ass
>>>> project name as early as possible so the author doesn't get stuck trying to
>>>> handle every error coming their way in the near future. Look at it this
>>>> way. You even have a bunch of terms for it in this single thread: *SJW
>>>> Flippancy.* Loic brought up *identity politics*. Roman is trying make
>>>> a tally of who is it who's offended in the first place as if that made any
>>>> difference the moment this gets out of here.
>>>>
>>>> If you can't see that as a warning sign when this discussion is taking
>>>> place within mailing list regulars, what will be a reasonable waning sign
>>>> to you?
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> With best regards,
>>      Roman Galeev,
>>      +420 702 817 968 <+420%20702%20817%20968>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
>
> *Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya
> <http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/204a87f81a0d9764c1f3364f53e8facf.png>That
> tall bald Indian guy..*
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