[erlang-questions] Trace-Driven Development
Mon Jun 4 18:00:28 CEST 2012
I really think there are two issues here: what they are, or what they are commonly known as; and the generating idea behind them. I can't comment about seq_trace as I have absolutely no idea how they actually got the idea to do it like it is, whether from Lamport or from "forlopp trace" in AXE. And how you should describe them is another matter. IF the idea came "forlopp trace" then you should say that and then maybe add a comment that it is similar to Lamport clocks.
Another example is when people say that Erlang implements the actor model. Well perhaps, but when we designed Erlang it was definitely not the actor model which influenced us as we had not heard about the actor model at that time. Even though it had been invented much earlier. We worked from our ideas of how such a system could/should be implemented. With maybe a little CSP in it, at least that is where the '!' came from, and a long defunct '?'. The actor model first came when people told us we had implemented it. So if we don't mention the actor model we are not being dishonest, but truthful.
----- Original Message -----
> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Ulf Wiger <> wrote:
> >> this fact somehow hasn't made it into the documentation. Everybody
> >> has
> >> to rediscover it. This is not just a waste of their time, there's
> >> also
> >> the opportunity cost for Erlang/OTP (and Ericsson) in people *not*
> >> discovering it because it's not named as such at www.erlang.org.
> > First of all, I didn't dispute that seq_trace implements Lamport
> > clocks,
> And I never said you disputed it. If there's a dispute, it's whether
> AXE did. I can't see that.
> > only that the requirements for seq_trace had different origins.
> That would be a more credible claim if the counters in seq_trace
> weren't computed in a manner *identical* to the usual descriptions of
> them found in the literature starting over 30 years ago.
> > ... smart people working on the same type of
> > problems will sometimes independently arrive at very similar
> > conclusions.)
> The copyright on the manual starts with the year 2001. Over two
> decades after Lamport famously wrote, seq_trace implements exactly
> what's typically described, and the AXE document -- which doesn't
> supply nearly enough detail to verify independent invention -- is the
> best you can offer as evidence of independent invention?
> > My main reason for responding was that you accused the OTP team of
> > being
> > "dishonest" in not mentioning where their ideas came from.
> "Ideas" is *your* plural, not mine. But look at the facts: there was
> an obvious thing to call it -- obvious to anyone who's studied
> concurrent programming, and I think you all have. One thing it's
> called in the literature is "sequential tracing."
> As for dishonesty: If somebody had this algorithm described to them,
> was assigned to write the documentation, and did so in a hurry,
> without checking with their informant about origins, that makes them
> more sloppy than dishonest.
> But not taking the trouble to even *briefly* credit the foundational
> work by a famous computer scientist, in the official documentation,
> 2007, after the question arose on the list and was answered in the
> affirmative? That's getting *really* sloppy.
> > ... I maintain that
> > they are not; only that many of the inputs that *actually* informed
> > the
> > implementation were either confidential or proprietary enough to be
> > of
> > no interest to the people reading the manuals.
> This is an algorithm made famous among people concerned with
> concurrent programming in the late 70s and in seq_trace it's
> implemented identically to the canonical implementation. And I don't
> have evidence of any implementation in Erlang/OTP before 2001. An
> this widespread and remarked upon -- and by the year 2000, celebrated
> as a landmark paper -- but somehow people missed that they had
> reinvented a wheel? I don't think so. At best, they missed how sloppy
> their documentation was. And is.
> > A question is of course how many people are helped by the seq_trace
> > documentation mentioning the relation to Lamport clocks. Some
> > might,
> > but others couldn't care less; they just want to know how to use
> > the
> > functionality.
> OK, so now the defense is "who cares who invented it?" There is
> to care. When there's decades worth of literature referring to its
> uses, *everybody* should care. Anything else is an encouragement to
> reinvent wheels.
> > We have had examples of OTP man pages in the past that
> > have gone into great detail about algorithm choices, resulting only
> > in
> > terrifying anyone who came there just to learn how to use the API.
> What a strawman argument. I asked: how long does it take to add
> "seq_trace implements Lamport clocks"? Nowhere have I suggested that
> Ericsson's documentation on seq_trace be a comprehensive treatment of
> the subject. Don't put words in my mouth. I only ask for this: Credit
> where it's due, and give people a starting point for further
> investigation (or for the more savvy among those doing concurrent
> programming, to orient them quickly to what seq_trace does.) In the
> same four words.
> > This is of course the big challenge when writing product manuals.
> Writing a 4-word sentence giving credit where it's due is no big
> writing challenge. And in this case, it's an ethical imperative.
> > Many things that are of academic interest must be left out of the
> > manual if it ends up confusing the reader.
> In your last response, you said you weren't even sure whether
> seq_trace implemented Lamport clocks. A glance by anyone familiar
> them can verify that it does. Despite your previous level of
> about Lamport clocks, it now sounds like you know for a fact that
> are only of academic interest. Where is THAT certainty coming from? A
> comprehensive literature survey done in a few hours?
> > ... In this case, I'm pretty sure
> > it could be worked in without harming readability, but it is of
> > course
> > perfectly possible to use seq_trace without understanding, or even
> > being aware of the existence of, Lamport clocks.
> As it happens, so far, I haven't used the Lamport's relative
> feature. But I'm coming up to the point where the fact that they help
> describe a partial ordering of events is an essential part of my
> testing. I *will* be looking to the literature to see what's been
> on this subject. Who wouldn't, given that people have over 30 years
> experience with it now, and must have written about it?
> > The OTP team is known to accept patches to the documentation,
> > so please feel free to contribute to a more helpful way to describe
> > the tracing support. I'm sure it would be universally appreciated.
> The one time I tried to get a patch into anything in Erlang
> that was causing a build under FreeBSD to segfault), it didn't make
> into the next release -- even though other people helped get it into
> shape for submission. Pardon me for being a little leery of the
> I hereby suggest, for whomever it's easier: add the line "seq_trace
> implements Lamport clocks." (Alternatively, "Lamport timestamps.")
> Kenneth Lundin already admitted it back in 2007, on this list. It's
> long past time to get it in there.
> And I suggest that you NOT take the opportunity to add any supposed
> "history" about how AXE implemented Lamport clocks until you can
> demonstrate that it did. From what I can see in the documentation you
> pointed to, AXE did not.
> -michael turner
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